The p/p hegemony continues unabated

[tango]

1 hour ago, US31 said:

A quick look at John Harrell.....These three OWNED 4A as soon as IC and RC moved up from 3A in the mid 90's

 

No question those 3 were frequent flyers at their actual 4A enrollment levels. 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

4 hours ago, Titan32 said:

But they aren't at those levels enrollment wise.  There comes a point that the P/P advantages disappear once a public has enough shear volume of heartbeats in the hallways....given they have all the things any school needs to be successful:  Feeder, Facilities, Admin, Coaching, Community, etc etc.  Said another way....I don't think publics have anything to complain about at 5A and 6A with regard to private advantages.  The only thing possibly left on the table is the ability to recruit, but that is a tough argument with open transfer. 

Open enrollment should have nullified the Success Factor. But, in Muda's world, it's the perfect equality. 
 

If any of you want to sell me on a great program with great coaching and championship potential for free with an advantage over a private that has to pay thousands to possibly play their senior year, I'll kiss my own arse. To even say an East Central has some 4A disadvantage to Cathedral is laughable. Their facilities are absolutely incredible (looks like Carmel), they can recruit the entire county like Cathedral (and every Marion Co school but without competition), and have plenty of donor muscle. 
 

As long as every public in the state has some sort of competitive equity regardless of coaching, enrollment, or facilities, Muda will be happy. Socialist football is miserable though. Seek out a better situation or build better. It's really pretty simple. Irish Football has been generationally built and that is something that should not be discounted. Also 0-2 the last two years for the 'ship. 

[US31]

2 hours ago, tango said:

No question those 3 were frequent flyers at their actual 4A enrollment levels. 

My reply was just to the statement that the p/p advantages evaporate at 4A enrollement.  25 years of games, 18 times included one of those three, 3 times it was two of them.

I agree that, thus far, only IC has been able to have sustained success beyond that.

Edited January 3, 2024 by US31

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, US31 said:

My reply was just to the statement that the p/p advantages evaporate at 4A enrollement.

Lakewood (OH) St. Edward, enrollment 920 boys in 4 grades, 3 time defending Div. 1 champion, says, “hold my beer.” 🤣😂

Edited January 3, 2024 by Bobref

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

Miuuuuuudaaaa. Muuuuuda. Where art thou? Eating ice cream in Rossville thinking up ways to weaken the IHSAA and the class warfare no doubt. 

#hegemony 

[First_Backer_Inside]

22 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Also 0-2 the last two years for the 'ship. 

Dang, Cathedral fell off, y'all are about as good at football as public schools now.

[Titan32]

So I conducted an interesting experiment here.  My hypothesis appears to be correct.  The construct is that the P/P faithful will argue tooth and nail that enrollment is the only measure needed to fairly slot schools into classification for HS football.  They have lamented time after time here that there aren't any P/P advantages in high school football.  Then, interestingly, when presented with the prospect that once a public get's big enough the advantages dissipate, they will pivot and argue that P/Ps always have an advantage at any level of HS football.  There is an interesting dichotomy here, not sure if it is more Freudian or Sabater.  It appears they need to have it both ways.  I mean "need" in the most literal sense.

 

[CoachGallogly]

5 hours ago, Titan32 said:

So I conducted an interesting experiment here.  My hypothesis appears to be correct.  The construct is that the P/P faithful will argue tooth and nail that enrollment is the only measure needed to fairly slot schools into classification for HS football.  They have lamented time after time here that there aren't any P/P advantages in high school football.  Then, interestingly, when presented with the prospect that once a public get's big enough the advantages dissipate, they will pivot and argue that P/Ps always have an advantage at any level of HS football.  There is an interesting dichotomy here, not sure if it is more Freudian or Sabater.  It appears they need to have it both ways.  I mean "need" in the most literal sense.

 

Every school has strengths and weaknesses. Some more of one than the other.  No two private schools are the same, just as no two public schools are the same.
 

 There is a long list of factors that lead to success. No question private schools have a higher winning percentage in the postseason than what you’d expect based on quantity. But it might be because the average private school is better suited to check off factors on that list.  That doesn’t equate however to all private schools excelling simply because of their p/p designation, and it also doesn’t prohibit public schools from achieving those standards based on their designation.  

The trick is to see what the good public and good private schools have in common and compare it to what the struggling public and private schools have in common.  

[Irishman]

43 minutes ago, CoachGallogly said:

The trick is to see what the good public and good private schools have in common and compare it to what the struggling public and private schools have in common.  

Well stated post except for the part I highlighted. When you get to this point in the comparisons, it becomes an apples and oranges thing. What struggling private schools are dealing with is nothing even close to what struggling public schools are dealing with; whether we are talking about on the field or in the classroom. 

[CoachGallogly]

They don’t have to share everything in common to have some things in common. 

[Irishman]

I did not say they had to share everything in common. 

[Muda69]

On 1/4/2024 at 3:44 AM, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Miuuuuuudaaaa. Muuuuuda. Where art thou? Eating ice cream in Rossville thinking up ways to weaken the IHSAA and the class warfare no doubt. 

#hegemony 

?  I'm here, and have said my peace on the issue.

And the last time I checked there is no ice cream stand in Rossville.  The Milky Way in Frankfort is where it's at.

 

[oldtimeqb]

19 hours ago, Titan32 said:

So I conducted an interesting experiment here.  My hypothesis appears to be correct.  

 

Once again.  You hear what you want to hear.  And nothing will change your mind to the contrary. 

 

[Titan32]

11 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

Once again.  You hear what you want to hear.  And nothing will change your mind to the contrary. 

 

I'm not the one who typed the responses....it's there in plain English

 

14 hours ago, CoachGallogly said:

Every school has strengths and weaknesses. Some more of one than the other.  No two private schools are the same, just as no two public schools are the same.
 

 There is a long list of factors that lead to success. No question private schools have a higher winning percentage in the postseason than what you’d expect based on quantity. But it might be because the average private school is better suited to check off factors on that list.  That doesn’t equate however to all private schools excelling simply because of their p/p designation, and it also doesn’t prohibit public schools from achieving those standards based on their designation.  

The trick is to see what the good public and good private schools have in common and compare it to what the struggling public and private schools have in common.  

And within that framework...enrollment alone doesn't adequate work to classify the teams who do all of those things well into groups.  Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[CoachGallogly]

The purpose of the success factor was to account to a degree to the differences beyond enrollment. Since it was implemented we’ve seen a greater variety of winners at the sectional level on up. And any complaints lodged have come from both public and private school supporters so I’d say it’s accomplished its mission. 

[foxbat]

23 hours ago, Titan32 said:

So I conducted an interesting experiment here.  My hypothesis appears to be correct.  The construct is that the P/P faithful will argue tooth and nail that enrollment is the only measure needed to fairly slot schools into classification for HS football.  They have lamented time after time here that there aren't any P/P advantages in high school football.  Then, interestingly, when presented with the prospect that once a public get's big enough the advantages dissipate, they will pivot and argue that P/Ps always have an advantage at any level of HS football.  There is an interesting dichotomy here, not sure if it is more Freudian or Sabater.  It appears they need to have it both ways.  I mean "need" in the most literal sense.

 

I don't see it that way.  Your statement is that p/p advantage pretty much dissipates after 3A.  The folks that pointed out the flaw in your reasoning weren't, IMO, addressing the flaw with your reasoning by claiming that p/p enjoys an advantage at all classes, but that your premise seems not to be definitive in its own right in that there were three programs that did well in that 4A grouping.   

[US31]

1 hour ago, CoachGallogly said:

The purpose of the success factor was to account to a degree to the differences beyond enrollment. Since it was implemented we’ve seen a greater variety of winners at the sectional level on up. And any complaints lodged have come from both public and private school supporters so I’d say it’s accomplished its mission. 

When different p/p's still monopolize their enrollment advantages Thanksgiving weekend (particulary 1A-3A) I'd strongly disagree.  The Yo-Yo factor of different p/p's taking advantage when another is SF'd up is, at best, and unforeseen, consequence of fixing the issue with ONLY the current SF system.

Trading one school with the p/p enrollment advantage for another is not (IMHO) the same as saying "mission accomplished".

I would remove ALL p/p's from 1A at a minimum.

[Indiana Fan]

On 1/3/2024 at 6:12 PM, Bobref said:

Lakewood (OH) St. Edward, enrollment 920 boys in 4 grades, 3 time defending Div. 1 champion, says, “hold my beer.” 🤣😂

I could give a rats behind about St. Edward football. This is indiana. Good for them in Ohio.

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, Indiana Fan said:

I could give a rats behind about St. Edward football. This is indiana. Good for them in Ohio.

Context. You missed it.

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, US31 said:

When different p/p's still monopolize their enrollment advantages Thanksgiving weekend (particulary 1A-3A) I'd strongly disagree.  The Yo-Yo factor of different p/p's taking advantage when another is SF'd up is, at best, and unforeseen, consequence of fixing the issue with ONLY the current SF system.

Trading one school with the p/p enrollment advantage for another is not (IMHO) the same as saying "mission accomplished".

I would remove ALL p/p's from 1A at a minimum.

I think you are using the term yo-yo incorrectly in this case.  There are two places where the "yo yo" effect had had an impact in a p/p context and, in both of those cases, it was not due to a stable use of SF:

• In 2015, LCC's return ... yo-yo ... back to 1A from 2A was due to SF requiring 4 points to stay up instead of 2 points.  Had SF used 2 points, LCC would not have returned back to 1A to win a state title in 2015 over Linton.  LCC would later end up staying in 2A for just having a single point in COVID realignment in 2021. 
• Which brings us to Chatard, who bounced back down to 3A after being SF'd to 4A for a single season.  In their infinite wisdom, Chatard was placed in the same sectional with Roncalli, which caused the Trojans to end up with 0 points and, in a one-season realignment moved back to 3A.  Likely, if Chatard had been placed in any of at least half the 4A sectionals that year, they would have gotten one point and, like LCC, remained up in the class where they were SF'd.

Folks are likely to point to Lutheran's recent domination in 1A, but note that Lutheran only had two tangles in the last decade with p/p schools that kept them from progressing out of 1A; although they will now be departing due to SF.  In 2019 and 2020, Lutheran's state title hopes were dashed by LCC and Covenant Christian respectively; however, in the years since LCC was SF'd, Lutheran's seasons were ended by public schools including South Putnam, North Vermillion [three times across five seasons], Linton, and Eastern Greene prior to the last three years' worth of run.

 

[Donnie Baker]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:32 PM, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Open enrollment should have nullified the Success Factor. But, in Muda's world, it's the perfect equality. 
 

If any of you want to sell me on a great program with great coaching and championship potential for free with an advantage over a private that has to pay thousands to possibly play their senior year, I'll kiss my own arse. To even say an East Central has some 4A disadvantage to Cathedral is laughable. Their facilities are absolutely incredible (looks like Carmel), they can recruit the entire county like Cathedral (and every Marion Co school but without competition), and have plenty of donor muscle. 
 

As long as every public in the state has some sort of competitive equity regardless of coaching, enrollment, or facilities, Muda will be happy. Socialist football is miserable though. Seek out a better situation or build better. It's really pretty simple. Irish Football has been generationally built and that is something that should not be discounted. Also 0-2 the last two years for the 'ship. 

Open enrowment doesn’t guarantee athletic eligibility. State Law 

[Titan32]

So, as I was strolling through dollar general (this is where we poor folks get toilet paper)…..it hit me.  Like some sort of vision or message from the big guy himself.  Right there between Reese cups and Applebees gift cards.

 

 

 

[tango]

LOL. I'm not sure that is the flex you think it is, Titan32, but hey, at least someone posted on the GID!!

Edited January 12, 2024 by tango

[oldtimeqb]

14 hours ago, Titan32 said:

So, as I was strolling through dollar general (this is where we poor folks get toilet paper)…..it hit me.  Like some sort of vision or message from the big guy himself.  Right there between Reese cups and Applebees gift cards.

 

 

 

Now that I think about it. Catholic schools are at a disadvantage. 

The Protestant practice of adult baptism by immersion would teach MUCH better tackling form than the Catholic sacrament.  

[foxbat]

2 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

Now that I think about it. Catholic schools are at a disadvantage. 

The Protestant practice of adult baptism by immersion would teach MUCH better tackling form than the Catholic sacrament.  

Just gotta worry about the unnecessary roughness call.