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Seeding coming to IHSAA football tournament? A proposal for Class 6A is in the works.


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2 hours ago, JQWL said:

We have that now and if seeded properly we wouldn't have it after week 1 of the post-season.

Ya at the expense of #1 and #2 beating each other in the 1st round. That’s the only way to justify 70-0 running clocks; “that’s the way the ping pong balls fall” aka the All-In blind draw.

If seeded appropriately, the IHSAA can no longer hide between CG or Ben Davis beating Tech 80-0 every year. Multiply that by 40 some sectionals and you get what’s called redundancy. It’s the only reason why seeding hasn’t yet been implemented because we all know what the next step.

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Generally not my time of year to post since I’m well between day long Margarita binges, second degree burns and Florida Daytona area racing but just send the post season records my way and I’ll spit out the info needed.

Edited by Lysander
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On 2/9/2024 at 6:49 PM, jets said:

 

Maybe just ask some wrestling coaches - they’ve seemed to figure it out since the beginning of time

They also wrestle 30 matches a year. Usually after 30 matches you see a decent amount of the schools in your sectional and have a good idea of who is the dude to beat in the sectional. Not as easy to do with 9 games.

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34 minutes ago, Jbk2 said:

Just have seed meetings like wrestling and with the technology we have you can do it with zoom or whatever they are using today.

I get that they do it for wrestling - an individual sport.  But when would you and @jets propose the meeting?

Saturday morning after week 9?  That could be possible in 1-4A, but would be much easier in 5 & 6 where you would still have two weeks to prepare.  

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37 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said:

I get that they do it for wrestling - an individual sport.  But when would you and @jets propose the meeting?

Saturday morning after week 9?  That could be possible in 1-4A, but would be much easier in 5 & 6 where you would still have two weeks to prepare.  

Let's say Saturday morning after week 9, the coaches of the 8 sectionals rank the teams, excluding your own team. Do it via Google Forms. The Forms get sent to the host school that's in charge of the money for the year. Then shared to each AD. Ballots have to be submitted by noon. If you do not submit a ballot, you automatically get seeded last.

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On 2/9/2024 at 4:30 PM, Footballking16 said:

Ok Calpreps, Massey, create your own formula....

Literally every other state has some kind of rating or qualification system that seeds the postseason or counts for inclusion. 

That's the next step.

Once you appropriately seed the sectionals, the need for what is now considered the first round becomes redundant. There will be running clocks in 75-80% of games if and when they seed appropriately. 

We're getting there....slowly but surely. 

About the only state outside of Indiana i have a little bit of knowledge on is Illinois. From what I know, they don't have a lot of conference games. They travel a lot to play teams within their class. Because of conferences being the majority(for some schools the entirety) of the schedule, in some cases I just think things would get interesting in terms of who gets different seeds. Obviously we could go by different rating systems, but at the end of the day, if two good teams didn't play each other and one got in and the other didn't because of that rating system, you're gonna have some pissed off coaches.

If we go to the 1-16 seeding for all classes and do away with all-in, one thing that could help would be having a week 10 regular season game to schedule more of those out of conference games. 

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1 hour ago, JQWL said:

Let's say Saturday morning after week 9, the coaches of the 8 sectionals rank the teams, excluding your own team. Do it via Google Forms. The Forms get sent to the host school that's in charge of the money for the year. Then shared to each AD. Ballots have to be submitted by noon. If you do not submit a ballot, you automatically get seeded last.

This wouldn't work

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13 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

About the only state outside of Indiana i have a little bit of knowledge on is Illinois. From what I know, they don't have a lot of conference games. They travel a lot to play teams within their class. Because of conferences being the majority(for some schools the entirety) of the schedule, in some cases I just think things would get interesting in terms of who gets different seeds. Obviously we could go by different rating systems, but at the end of the day, if two good teams didn't play each other and one got in and the other didn't because of that rating system, you're gonna have some pissed off coaches.

If we go to the 1-16 seeding for all classes and do away with all-in, one thing that could help would be having a week 10 regular season game to schedule more of those out of conference games. 

There wouldn't be a "good" team left out of a system that cut a 64 team class to 32 at the conclusion of the regular season using a rating system/formula that calculated W-L record, opponent W-L, SOS, and opponent SOS. That I'm sure of. 

I am a huge proponent of adding a 10th regular season game.

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Just now, JQWL said:

Because we need to meet in person for hours upon hours to decide who is the best team in your sectional?

No, it was a good pitch. You just have to think about the same problem that arises with the coaches poll every year. Unfortunately as coaches, you don't have all the time in the world. You also don't see a lot of the teams in your sectional. Yes you can have an idea of who is good but you don't necessarily get to see them on film, see who they play, etc. so trying to have the coaches seed a sectional would be difficult if you don't see everyone because records can be deceiving. Not to mention opinions of other schools, relationships between coaches, I have respect for a lot of coaches all over the state. I also know other coaches I trust about as far as I can throw them if you are catching where I'm going with this.

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6 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

No, it was a good pitch. You just have to think about the same problem that arises with the coaches poll every year. Unfortunately as coaches, you don't have all the time in the world. You also don't see a lot of the teams in your sectional. Yes you can have an idea of who is good but you don't necessarily get to see them on film, see who they play, etc. so trying to have the coaches seed a sectional would be difficult if you don't see everyone because records can be deceiving. Not to mention opinions of other schools, relationships between coaches, I have respect for a lot of coaches all over the state. I also know other coaches I trust about as far as I can throw them if you are catching where I'm going with this.

I do. I also thought about cross class rankings. Such as coaches from sectional 48 ranking 40 and vice versa. The rankings wouldn't directly impact the voters but the teams are in a similar region and should be somewhat familiar with the schools. Nothing will be perfect. Just improve upon what we now have.

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39 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

About the only state outside of Indiana i have a little bit of knowledge on is Illinois. From what I know, they don't have a lot of conference games. They travel a lot to play teams within their class. Because of conferences being the majority(for some schools the entirety) of the schedule, in some cases I just think things would get interesting in terms of who gets different seeds. Obviously we could go by different rating systems, but at the end of the day, if two good teams didn't play each other and one got in and the other didn't because of that rating system, you're gonna have some pissed off coaches.

If we go to the 1-16 seeding for all classes and do away with all-in, one thing that could help would be having a week 10 regular season game to schedule more of those out of conference games. 

The other thing that Illinois does is that despite seeding - They still decide home/away the same manner as Indiana. 

For example, 1 seed hosts 8. 4 seed hosts 5. If 5 beats 4, they would host the 1 in the second round as a round 1 non-host. If 4 wins, then both 1/4 were hosts, so 1 would host because seed is tiebreaker. 

That might discourage some coach sandbagging to manipulate seeds

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6 hours ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

They also wrestle 30 matches a year. Usually after 30 matches you see a decent amount of the schools in your sectional and have a good idea of who is the dude to beat in the sectional. Not as easy to do with 9 games.

 

3 hours ago, oldtimeqb said:

I get that they do it for wrestling - an individual sport.  But when would you and @jets propose the meeting?

Saturday morning after week 9?  That could be possible in 1-4A, but would be much easier in 5 & 6 where you would still have two weeks to prepare.  

Every time seeding gets brought up - the naysayers sprout up with these points (how are you going to make it FAIR & logistically WHEN would you have the meetings) ....YOU'RE MISSING THE MOST OBVIOUS POINT - it is 100% better than having two 9-0 teams play 1st round while 1-8 gets to play 2-7!?!? IN WHAT WORLD is that right/fair?!? 

Give the regular season some form of meaning.

Will things be PERFECT?? Of course not....but it is light years better than what we have in place now. 

 

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4 hours ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

No, it was a good pitch. You just have to think about the same problem that arises with the coaches poll every year. Unfortunately as coaches, you don't have all the time in the world. You also don't see a lot of the teams in your sectional. Yes you can have an idea of who is good but you don't necessarily get to see them on film, see who they play, etc. so trying to have the coaches seed a sectional would be difficult if you don't see everyone because records can be deceiving. Not to mention opinions of other schools, relationships between coaches, I have respect for a lot of coaches all over the state. I also know other coaches I trust about as far as I can throw them if you are catching where I'm going with this.

They trust them to rate the officials which determines how far a crew gets to advance. You think they know nothing about other teams in their sectional. They know even less about the crews and how good they are. But they ultimately determine crew ranking. It's often determined by a volume of votes rather than a quality of votes. So the more well known crews advance regardless of quality. Fortunately for the IHSAA the crews who know a lot of coaches are also pretty good, but that hasn't always been the case. It also prevents the really good crews who aren't as well known from advancing. The key factor for popularity? The crew chief is also a basketball official who has had advanced far in the basketball tournament.

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Don't we already have a Sectional Meeting for each Sectional with coaches and AD's. Couldn't this be done in like an hour in that meeting. We are talking about 8 teams, not a bunch of different weight classes. It could even be done before week 9 just like the draw.

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1 minute ago, CoachDurham said:

Don't we already have a Sectional Meeting for each Sectional with coaches and AD's. Couldn't this be done in like an hour in that meeting. We are talking about 8 teams, not a bunch of different weight classes. It could even be done before week 9 just like the draw.

Seems TOO LOGICAL there Coach. 😂 Instead, we'll all say it's impossible to do, debate the best way to do it, and then proceed as is with the hope we avoid 1st round matchups like Ben Davis vs Brownsburg, or Hobart vs New Prairie, etc. There has to be a simple, efficient way to seed this thing no matter how you slice it.  

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