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But at some point, there's a certain threshold where # of boys shouldn't really matter. If you have 1500 boys in your school, that's enough (or should be) to field a more than competitive football team. I don't have exact numbers, but I would imagine that most 6A schools have at least 100+ football players in its program grades 9-12. Some schools might dress 80-100 kids Friday night, but in reality you're really only relying on maybe 40-50 kids who see the field on any given Friday night. If you have 2500+ kids in your school and can't find 40-50 decent to good football players to the point you're not competitive on a Friday night that's either a culture or coaching problem. SES at a 6A school is all window dressing. There's more than enough affluent to middle class schools with 2500+ kids who have average to bad football programs right now.

I'm just here so I don't get fined. And so HHF takes the PAC off "steady" and into "thriving", because we don't want the SIAC being perceived as the better GID conference.

It’s a combination of both. I’ve said this from day one. Cathedral is not a public school. Completely different topic. You have both, you are an annual contender. (Carmel) You have one (SES) but not the other (Center Grove), you are a contender more often than not. You have one (enrollment) but not the other (Ben Davis, Warren) you are a contender more often than not. You have neither, you are irrelevant (Tech). The right coaching staff matters, no doubt but the very definition of “coaching” is much more complex at some places more so than others. There are exceptions (as @Footballking16loves to point out) but these are pretty proven at the 6A level. While many students at Center Grove and Carmel are wondering what dessert they are going to order, those at BD, Warren and Tech are simply wondering where their next meal is going to come from. Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.

Muda will be awarding points to teams who punt on 3rd down up big in the 2nd half.

Really, really silly rule that holds Indiana back (among other things) yet in the event it was overturned there still wouldn't be a team in this state dumb enough to schedule IMG. IMG plays non-prep schools for two reasons; 1) to beat you by 50 points and 2) try and poach your states best players.

Correct. A lot of people think the travel limitations only apply when the Indiana school travels out of state. That’s incorrect. The travel rule, which is Rule 10-1, reads as follows: “The address of an out-of-state school participating in a Contest with a member School, as well as the site of such Contests, must be within six hundred (600) miles round trip travel from the Indiana state line and shall be sponsored or co-sponsored by a member School.” I’m on record as saying the travel rule constitutes an unwarranted intrusion on the rights of local school corporations to decide, on a case by case basis, what sort of experiences they want to offer students, including student athletes. A blanket rule like 10-1 is a blatant overreach by the IHSAA.

Personally, I hate the Facebook groups. It’s harder to keep track of the posts because they’re not separated by topic and it’s just way easier to miss posts. Also, I feel like the overall IQ is much much lower on there and I don’t have the patience for it.

Some of these coaches are pretty smart guys. What I don’t understand is how anyone with half a brain can’t see what sort of attitude this treatment breeds. Combine this with promises of NIL deals and you are making it very difficult for these impressionable 18 yr. olds to avoid an entitlement mentality. The result is that the concept of “team” is lost. Football is the most demanding sport in terms of teamwork leading to success. @temptation’s observation above expresses it succinctly. That attitude is absolute poison in a program. It’s a pretty tough sell to get a kid to embrace the attitude that he’s a cog in the big machine, when everything else you’re saying and doing tells the kid the opposite.

The AD's I know would tell you to take a flying leap.

No shot. Bear for life.

Hey Waldorf! Think what you want.....rather be that kid than a bitter old dude that can't let something go.... You're hi-jacking a thread with the same old song.....and I just don't want to go down your rabbit hole. But nice closing try with the "you're not smart enough" to debate with me.....

I wouldn’t get too comfortable. In today’s educational society buzzwords like equity, inclusion and representation are being utilized more and more. Hell, soon not only will every team get in, we may start giving teams points on the scoreboard before kickoff or even letting teams play with 12-13 guys in the name of fairness.

I’ll do a little of my “SIAC magic” to confirm on the Herdes rumors

you are going to feel the way you feel based on your personal experiences, and I the same. I lived the old format here in Indiana. I understand the disappointment first hand for a 7-2 team. Now, I realize today's criteria may be significantly different. CG was a very young team that faced an absolute gauntlet their first 4 games...you know nothing about the team and their abilities over those games. But they sure learned and developed. Urgency...that's funny. You obviously don't know anything about Coach Moore and his program. I'm not playing this old game with you...quite frankly, that horse is gone and its boring. And if you need to pull out the handkerchief and dab the tears from your eyes, try brushing your teeth....

Right and the IHSAA took the easy out and went from a bad situation with the cluster format to nearly a worse with the all-in. Cluster and all-in are on complete ends of the spectrum, there is a middle ground somewhere in-between. I think all but two states have figured it out.

Using that particular year for Center Grove, they would have made every single postseason format that effectively cuts the field in half using some kind of combination of record, SOS, and opponent SOS. CG was a top 10-15 Sagarin team the entire year despite the slow start.

IMO, football blew past basketball in popularity many years ago.

While we often try to look at things that are similar across groups from year to year that are easily measures, like SES, enrollment, p/p or public, etc., there are other factor that weigh in that aren't as easily defined and end up being more qualitative than quantitative ... although we often try to simplify it using a proxy/surrogate that doesn't always fit and often points in the incorrect/incomplete direction of explanation. I see evidence of this in evaluating a program like LCC. Just some general ideas/numbers: For general context of where some of this is going, in part, in 1983, LCC went 0-10, followed by a 1984 season of 1-9. After that 1983 season, it was decided that that could not happen again and that a focus on introduction to football BEFORE high school was needed. That was the advent of the youth program at LCC. Prior to LCC's four-peat run, starting in 2008, and beyond, LCC's win percentage, historically as a program, was 53.6%. It's current percentage is around 60.2%. Going back to that first bullet point, from the start of the youth program to the senior year of its first players, LCC's program went about 42% as a winning percentage. From the season of that first youth program's senior class to the start of the state championship runs, LCC went just under 63% winning percentage. The O'Shea era for LCC started in 2008 and went until 2016. Coach O'Shea finished an impressive 91.9% winning percentage in his time at LCC. You could argue that he won because he was at a p/p school with money and the like, but the same argument of the four plus coaches that were there in the seasons preceding his arrival and they also had the benefit of a youth program in place that was yielding 63% wins since the first class had gone all the way through the program and through varsity. Since O'Shea, LCC is 55.7%. Same youth program, same supposed SES, slightly larger enrollment. O'Shea was the right coach at the right time while, for O'Shea, LCC was the right program at the right time. There was a unique synergy there. It wasn't that he was a 90% winning coach when he got there or even after he left, so it can't just be all about the coach. Likewise, the SES and enrollments weren't too far off for the coaches precedeing him or the coaches after him, so it can't be all about the SES or enrollment or even the p/p aspect from an internal perspective. If it was only about size, SES, p/p vs. public, then the program should be experiencing much higher numbers than they are. If it was only about the youth program, then again, you might be able to make an argument that 25 years is the magic number ... the number of years the youth program had been in place when O'Shea arrived and thus no one else before then benefited ... although the percentages say otherwise.

Primary factors for ANY sport. Think Tech could hire Tiger Woods as their boys golf coach and turn into state contenders?

https://nypost.com/2022/06/16/familys-hidden-message-on-dads-gravestone-sparks-controversy/ It’s a grave situation. A family put an encoded message on their father’s gravestone as a way to honor him, but the cemetery staff finds it offensive. At the Warren-Powers Cemetery in Polk, Iowa, the quote on Steven Paul Owens’ stone seems harmless upon first glance — until the epitaph is revealed. The first letter of each line on his tombstone reads “f–k off.” When speaking to WIBW news, the family said that this was a phrase that Steven often used in a joking manner. “It was definitely his term of endearment. If he didn’t like you, he didn’t speak to you. It’s just who he was,” daughter Lindsay Owens told WIBW news. A lasting memory!! 🤣

LOL at using a one off and a team that is .333 since winning that state championship to try to drop the mic. (Lake Central has been nearly .500 in that same time frame by the way.) Why’d West leave LC for Warren then? Enrollment. Why’d he leave Warren for FC? SES.

This conversation has been had many times before. Look up the thread "Unsuccessful Programs" . Here's some data I provided previously:

I don't need to give you names of other programs. I've given you plenty of names and examples of programs over the years who have high enrollment/his SES numbers that don't translate to winning football programs, which has been your primary argument for years. Why can't we agree that there is a multitude of factors that go into a winning formula and it isn't limited to money and high enrollment? Seems logical, no?

From what I understand Mr. Herdes has transferred to Castle. I don't think he is playing football but I don't really know that to be honest.

Totally Agree with all points here.

Damn. Penn? Already? I was almost on board. NC will be fascinating to watch as the heat has to be turned up on O’Shea this fall. I think he’s easily a top 3 coach in the “former MIC” (maybe better). Not ready to throw dirt on Fishers yet, Noblesville has zero excuse this fall and don’t know enough about Lake Central. Now do the opposite for me. Gimme the names of some 6A schools with low enrollment and low SES that have had consistent success on a state wide level. Hell, do ANY class for me.

This

Haha, wait until when the season starts, I’ll be posting 100 times a week! Gotta bring those rookie numbers up!

You’re doing it again. No one said automatic…view it as a head start or being able to run a race on flat ground while others have to run uphill. That work?

So the equation for success is ...... Large enrollments x $$ = automatic success and championships.....unless, there is a HOF coach and that wipes out the formula. Nothing else matters.....who knew it was so simple? Expand school enrollments and find some $$. Carmel....crown them!! Game over. (exception Cathedral since they are private...forget about that adjustment to the success formula)

You are once again twisting my words and speaking in hyperbole. I said coaching matters. It’s why CG is what it is and NC isn’t. Their SES numbers have grown apart gradually but they aren’t all THAT different. But even THE BEST coach in the world can’t turn Arsenal Tech into Center Grove. Not to sound redundant but too many variables outside of what happens in the school house, practice or game field play a vital role. The pandemic only widened that gap. Plus, you can only put 11 on the field at a time so the Carmel argument you attempted to make doesn’t hold water. Now if you want to talk depth, special teams and fresh bodies, I’m all on board with Carmel having a huge advantage. CG is a contender more often than not. They were 8-6 three years ago (got hot and made a run to state), had 4 losses two years before that and went .500 in 2017. Like BD, you can’t let the run of sectional titles fool you. CG has a bye to the regional annually. As did BD.

People are too lazy to deal with the double top secret authentication of this site when they can just mind numbingly click around in facebook and find some content that they can make even more mind numbingly comments about.

I know you love to argue for the sake of arguing, and I'm not going to get sucked into it...too much on my work plate. If it were solely enrollment and $$, Carmel wins every year.....the disparity would be too much to overcome. We know that doesn't happen...especially when Carmel is in the southern bracket of the tournament. They also don't win the MIC title every year....not even close. BTW, I didn't limit the success equation to just coaching....lots more variables needed for success. Good to know that CG is only a sporadic contender....😄

1. You are in denial of my SES takes despite the data being right in front of your face (well maybe not yours specifically) down in Johnson County. Your “Center Grove has done it, why can’t everyone” shtick is what I laugh at. There are barriers to success faced by schools that someone in your environment couldn’t take the first step to comprehend and it has nothing to do with youth programs, X’s and O’s and practice “effort.” There is a reason that coaching turnover is through the roof in general and even more so at schools with low SES numbers. Just focusing on the two schools mentioned most frequently in this thread, coaches at Warren Central’s two ball sports have left for FRANKLIN CENTRAL. Ben Davis has had two legends in the ball sports depart for PERRY MERIDIAN and MOUNT VERNON. Times have changed. 2. It’s a message board. Bitching generates conversation. Don’t be so dense.

He takes it personally as some sort of discredit to Moore when someone brings up SES/enrollment.

Well my grandpa always said never say never but there are many many variables to life and career (no matter what the job). From reading your posts over the years, I understand that you kind of take the position that for a young coach...the next bigger "thing" should be the main focus. For some perhaps but many times it is not, in fact in the Teaching and Coaching profession in our fine state you might be able to say that even MOST of the time it is not. Coaching in HS has a very complex set of variables maybe more than many other careers. I have laid these out multiple times and won't bore folks here with it again. Long story short, I think Coach Hart has found a great place to raise a young family and he isn't the first professional to make that decision about the South Gibson area.

The #1 byproduct of social media and I dislike it. So @HHFis this player-driven or bro-coach driven? (Of which Luke Fickell would be a prime example.)

Lol. I’ll add #13 in that case… ”We are all going to die one day.” Hey, ensures I’m eventually correct.

Screams ME before WE.

Wait a minute! Every time I bring up the desirability of a playoff qualification system, because the “all in” tournament devalues the regular season, I’m told I’m crazy because “every game matters,” and “there’s no such thing as a meaningless game.” The “all in” tournament breeds exactly the attitude described above … which makes Indiana high school football less than what it could be.

No, I just laugh at your SES takes. I don’t think anybody is denying the simple math. I’m just saying nothing is gained by the constant bitching about it.