Coach Nowlin Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Seems to be some confusion: Here is the By-Law and table https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/Tournament Success Factor/Football Success Totals 2019-20 2020-21.pdf 2-5 Reclassification of Schools in Team Sports Due to Previous Tournament Series Success In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport basis dependent on the School’s previous tournament series success. a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series they achieve as follows: (1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point (2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points (3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points (4.) State Championship - Four (4) points b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle. c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a Two (2) year total tournament series success point value of One (1) point or below in a specific sport shall be placed in the classification immediately below the Enrollment classification the School occupied during the previous two (2) year cycle unless the Enrollment of the School dictates the same or higher classification previously occupied in that sport. d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a tournament series success point value of Two (2), Three (3), Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two (2) years. e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class in that sport. Teams Moved up due to SF last cycle and their outcomes 6a Columbus East: Did not earn any points in 6a, will go to enrollment level in 2021 cycle 5a Dwenger Remains in 5a with 2 points in 2019. 4a Evansville Memorial remains in 4a with 4 points in 2019 3a Southridge Remains in 3a with Regional Win last week. 2a Pioneer remains in 2a with Regional Win last week Teams who were already up from 2017-2019 Cycle and remained up in 2019-2020 Cycle and their Outcomes 6a FW Snider: Zero points last 2 years, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5a Cathedral: Will max out at 5 points even with State Finals win, give them only 5 for 2 year cycle, remains in 5a in 2021 5a New Palenstine will remain in 5a with 4 points won last year and none this year, a regional win would of moved them to 6a. Teams who will have earned a SF Bump next year 5A: Valpo wins Semi State they bump to 6a with 6 points 5A: Bloomington South earned 2 points in 2 years, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5A: Floyd Central earned 2 points, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5a: Lafayette Harrison: Will remiain in enrollment classification in 2021 5a: Mishawaka : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: East Noble Earned 4 total points: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Hobart : Will bump up to 5a with a State Championship in 2020 4a: Mississinewa : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Mooresville: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: New Prairie: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Roncalli Max out at 5 points even with State title: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Chatard: Bumps to 4a with Regional Championship last week 3a: Danvile: Bumps up to 4a with State Championship 3a: Heritage Hills: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Mishawak Marian Bumps to 4a with a State Championship 2020 3a: FW Concordia : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Knox: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Lawrenceburg Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Vincennes Lincoln: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Western Boone: Bumps to 3a with Regional win last week 2a: Eastbrook: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Andrean: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Triton Central Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Eastside: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Mater Dei: Max out at 5 points even with State Championship Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Heritage Christian Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Cass: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: LCC: Bumps up to 2a with their Regional Championship 1a: Lutheran Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: Adams Central Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: West Washington: Bumps to 2a with State Championship in 2020 1a: North Decatur: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: NJSP: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: North Vermillion: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: South Adams: Max out at 5 points even with State Championship There you have it folks: 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st_and_10 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Coach Nowlin said: Seems to be some confusion: Here is the By-Law and table https://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/ihsaa/documents/Tournament Success Factor/Football Success Totals 2019-20 2020-21.pdf 2-5 Reclassification of Schools in Team Sports Due to Previous Tournament Series Success In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport basis dependent on the School’s previous tournament series success. a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series they achieve as follows: (1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point (2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points (3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points (4.) State Championship - Four (4) points b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle. c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a Two (2) year total tournament series success point value of One (1) point or below in a specific sport shall be placed in the classification immediately below the Enrollment classification the School occupied during the previous two (2) year cycle unless the Enrollment of the School dictates the same or higher classification previously occupied in that sport. d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a tournament series success point value of Two (2), Three (3), Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two (2) years. e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class in that sport. Teams Moved up due to SF last cycle and their outcomes 6a Columbus East: Did not earn any points in 6a, will go to enrollment level in 2021 cycle 5a Dwenger Remains in 5a with 2 points in 2019. 4a Evansville Memorial remains in 4a with 4 points in 2019 3a Southridge Remains in 3a with Regional Win last week. 2a Pioneer remains in 2a with Regional Win last week Teams who were already up from 2017-2019 Cycle and remained up in 2019-2020 Cycle and their Outcomes 6a FW Snider: Zero points last 2 years, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5a Cathedral: Will max out at 5 points even with State Finals win, give them only 5 for 2 year cycle, remains in 5a in 2021 5a New Palenstine will remain in 5a with 4 points won last year and none this year, a regional win would of moved them to 6a. Teams who will have earned a SF Bump next year 5A: Valpo wins Semi State they bump to 6a with 6 points 5A: Bloomington South earned 2 points in 2 years, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5A: Floyd Central earned 2 points, will go to enrollment classification in 2021 5a: Lafayette Harrison: Will remiain in enrollment classification in 2021 5a: Mishawaka : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: East Noble Earned 4 total points: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Hobart : Will bump up to 5a with a State Championship in 2020 4a: Mississinewa : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Mooresville: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: New Prairie: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 4a: Roncalli Max out at 5 points even with State title: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Chatard: Bumps to 4a with Regional Championship last week 3a: Heritage Hills: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Mishawak Marian Bumps to 4a with a State Championship 2020 3a: FW Concordia : Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Knox: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Lawrenceburg Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 3a: Vincennes Lincoln: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Western Boone: Bumps to 3a with Regional win last week 2a: Eastbrook: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Andrean: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Triton Central Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Eastside: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Mater Dei: Max out at 5 points even with State Championship Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Heritage Christian Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 2a: Cass: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: LCC: Bumps up to 2a with their Regional Championship 1a: Lutheran Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: Adams Central Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: West Washington: Bumps to 2a with State Championship in 2020 1a: North Decatur: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: NJSP: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: North Vermillion: Will remain in enrollment Classification in 2021 1a: South Adams: Max out at 5 points even with State Championship There you have it folks: Danville will bump with a State Championship I believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Good catch, left 1 easter egg in there to see if anyone would find it!! OR>... Got distracted and glossed over them.. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenatorFan Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Is it 6 points in a two year cycle or 6 points in one year? I ask because West Washington has won back to back sectionals (2points) and back to back regionals (4 points). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said: 2a: Western Boone: Bumps to 3a with Regional win last week Back to back state championships wasn't enough to bump them up. But by gosh, that regional sure did! Contrast that to Scecina's bump up for losing in LOS back to back years. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but geez the two year cycle is way too short. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysander Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 minute ago, SenatorFan said: Is it 6 points in a two year cycle or 6 points in one year? I ask because West Washington has won back to back sectionals (2points) and back to back regionals (4 points). 6 pts over a 2 year “cycle”. Next year starts a new cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenatorFan Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The TW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 A team only earns the points from their last championship. So, if School X wins a semi-state but loses in state, they receive 3 points total (not 1+2+3 for each championship won). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st_and_10 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said: Back to back state championships wasn't enough to bump them up. But by gosh, that regional sure did! Contrast that to Scecina's bump up for losing in LOS back to back years. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but geez the two year cycle is way too short. Because the Championships bracketed a the 2 year cycle. I don't necessarily agree with the cycle. basically you have Freshman that will be Jr. paying for the classes that came before them for being good. Idk, Webo may have had to move up anyway because of enrollment (I honestly don't know) but it feels a bit ridiculous to punish Sophomores/Freshman/8th Graders/7th graders for what classes above them have done. I know that doing sectional realignements every year is difficult as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, 1st_and_10 said: Because the Championships bracketed a the 2 year cycle. I don't necessarily agree with the cycle. basically you have Freshman that will be Jr. paying for the classes that came before them for being good. Idk, Webo may have had to move up anyway because of enrollment (I honestly don't know) but it feels a bit ridiculous to punish Sophomores/Freshman/8th Graders/7th graders for what classes above them have done. I know that doing sectional realignements every year is difficult as well. My post was tongue firmly in cheek. I didn't mean it as a slight to Webo but as a criticism of the 2 year SF rule. Because they won state championships in the "wrong" two year window as opposed to Scecina who lost in the state finals in the "right" window. And I agree on the impact. Freshmen at Evansville Memorial set foot on campus this fall knowing they would play 4A football until their senior year, regardless of enrollment which currently sits in the 575 range. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Nowlin Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Remember IFCA proposal was 4 year 10 point cycle that IHSAA threw out and did there own 2 year 6 point language. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementbias Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I'm curious as to how many new schools are popping up in 1A that will determine how many schools currentlyin 1A will be considered 2A due to enrollment numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozen Tundra Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Basementbias said: I'm curious as to how many new schools are popping up in 1A that will determine how many schools currentlyin 1A will be considered 2A due to enrollment numbers. Wouldn’t matter. 1A is sitting at 62 teams so they can add a couple of schools without anyone having to bump up to 2A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justasportsfan Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Always thought the SF was brought in to break up the dynasties being created..2 year cycle definitely can dismantle a solid 4yr run.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmizers3 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said: Remember IFCA proposal was 4 year 10 point cycle that IHSAA threw out and did there own 2 year 6 point language. Not shocking that the IHSAA would screw that up also. I think the success factor is a good idea but the 2 year cycle is terrible. 1 really good class means you stand a good chance of getting bumped up. 2 years of success doesn't make you dominant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, dmizers3 said: Not shocking that the IHSAA would screw that up also. I think the success factor is a good idea but the 2 year cycle is terrible. 1 really good class means you stand a good chance of getting bumped up. 2 years of success doesn't make you dominant. I’ve disagreed with some things that the IHSAA has done over the years. But they usually have their reasons. Can somebody come up with the justification for the 2 yr. cycle vs. the 4 yr. cycle that everyone on here seems to favor? It seems to me that if the knock on the 2 yr. cycle is that it’s too easy to get moved up on the strength of one superior class, then the potential problem with the 4 yr. cycle is that it is too hard to get out of. You can be bad for a while before you go back down to your natural level. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XStar Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) Doesn't matter what you make the cycle, if you view the SF as "punishment" then you will never see it as fair no matter what the cycle is. If you view the SF as an attempt to put teams on a level playing field, then it largely serves its purpose. Not perfect but I think it gives us a better playoff than what we had before. Once you master one level, you move up and work on the next one. Edited November 18, 2020 by XStar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 You just have to tell your children to pick the right 2 years to be good at sports. (WEBO) Could have won 2 consecutive state championships and stayed in 2A (with a regional loss this year). I am fine with the 6 point SF rule, but why not just make a running tally of any consecutive 2 years? Is it too much work to do reclassifications every year? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XStar Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 28 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: You just have to tell your children to pick the right 2 years to be good at sports. (WEBO) Could have won 2 consecutive state championships and stayed in 2A (with a regional loss this year). I am fine with the 6 point SF rule, but why not just make a running tally of any consecutive 2 years? Is it too much work to do reclassifications every year? I would think you'd want Western Boone to stay in 2A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadRunner Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, XStar said: I would think you'd want Western Boone to stay in 2A. Please explain... If the ultimate goal is to "level the playing field" like you said above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Bobref said: I’ve disagreed with some things that the IHSAA has done over the years. But they usually have their reasons. Can somebody come up with the justification for the 2 yr. cycle vs. the 4 yr. cycle that everyone on here seems to favor? It seems to me that if the knock on the 2 yr. cycle is that it’s too easy to get moved up on the strength of one superior class, then the potential problem with the 4 yr. cycle is that it is too hard to get out of. You can be bad for a while before you go back down to your natural level. Thoughts? 10 minutes ago, XStar said: Doesn't matter what you make the cycle, if you view the SF as "punishment" then you will never see it as fair no matter what the cycle is. If you view the SF as an attempt to put teams on a level playing field, then it largely serves its purpose. Not perfect but I think it gives us a better playoff than what we had before. Once you master one level, you move up and work on the next one. I seriously think, especially in light of the fact that just about everyone here on GID who were involved or provided input to the IHSAA decision say that they had pushed for four years, leads me to believe that the IHSAA originally wanted to have a multiplier or class move that targeted P/P only. For whatever reason, they veered away from that and then it became a question of "What's the easiest thing to do that shows complainers that we are doing something?" Two-year cycle for both move up and possible move down was the answer. To @Bobref's questions about 2-year/4-year, it would seem that, if you HAVE to have something, then perhaps the following might work better: Up to four-year cycle for initial move up ... with three as a minimum. Must have visited LOS at least twice in those four years and come away with a blue ring at least once. This avoids a team being Scecina'd. Three trips in four sends you up regardless of outcome. If you are at LOS three years in a row or three in four, you have POTENTIAL beyond just a good class. Certainly mileage can vary, but three trips to LOS in four years probably points in the direction of more program than individual(s) ... again, although not perfect. Four-year period is a rolling period for SF consideration. Enrollment is still done on a two-year basis. We know annually, about this time, who is primed to move up or down anyway, as per @Coach Nowlin's other thread, and it's not really a large number in any given year given the requirements. Is it less than optimal in terms of time and effort doing four-year rolling? Sure, but the question is "Are we really serious about this or looking for expedience?" If it's the latter, then why even waste time pretending? For move back down, this is progressive in nature: First year up, must make it to sectional championship, minimum, to stay up ... otherwise immediate drop back down to previous class. Second year, must win a sectional or higher to stay up otherwise you go back down. Note that, in this case here, you will have won a sectional or appeared in a sectional championship the first year in order to have made a second year, so it would be similar to the current situation we have for staying in a higher class except for the ability to move back down after a single year. This a sweet/sour mix compared to the current version, but not by a lot. If you don't make it to a sectional championship, you get to go "back home" after your first year ... sweet. If you only win a single sectional, but have appeared in two, you stay up ... sour. Third year, must show progress. Must pick up at least a regional victory to stay up, otherwise you move down. Note that, in this case, a team will have needed both a sectional and regional championship to stay up. If not, they move back down. Fourth year, must have at least two sectional wins and a regional, minimum, to stay up ... four points AND the regional or higher must have come in one of the last two years. If not, they move back down. This avoids a team moving up, picking up a regional in the first year of the new class, and then having something like sectional, section, nothing. That's a team that's regressing and the upward move may well have been tied toward a couple good classes in a row. This year is probably the one that I need to think more about and tweak further. Note that, in this case an argument might be, but Team A can just keep winning semi-state if they come out of the north/south and don't have any competition. That's true, but if it's a program issue as opposed to a talented individual or class, they will likely be at LOS three years in four and will move up. Again, the idea here is to minimize the impact of a talented class and focus on a program situation. In the situation above, there's a progressive nature to it that would more likely than not, provide heavier weight for staying for program impacts and less for individual or a good class. Again, I'm kind of spitballing this, so there's some need for adjustment ... this is beyond my pay grade and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 10 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: Please explain... If the ultimate goal is to "level the playing field" like you said above. Western Boone is the best team in the state. I heard they beat the Colts in a scrimmage this summer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeqb Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 57 minutes ago, RoadRunner said: You just have to tell your children to pick the right 2 years to be good at sports. (WEBO) Could have won 2 consecutive state championships and stayed in 2A (with a regional loss this year). I am fine with the 6 point SF rule, but why not just make a running tally of any consecutive 2 years? Is it too much work to do reclassifications every year? I don’t buy that sectional assignments are too difficult to accomplish every year. Heck, states that have a qualifier system re-do the entire tournament each year. It’s 2020. I’m sure I could find a computer science or math major that could write an algorithm to minimize travel distances in 8 team clusters. An algorithm wouldn’t spit out beauties like Sectional 28 though. That’s why it will never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 9 minutes ago, oldtimeqb said: I don’t buy that sectional assignments are too difficult to accomplish every year. Heck, states that have a qualifier system re-do the entire tournament each year. It’s 2020. I’m sure I could find a computer science or math major that could write an algorithm to minimize travel distances in 8 team clusters. An algorithm wouldn’t spit out beauties like Sectional 28 though. That’s why it will never happen. Artificial intelligence is much easier to develop than artificial malice. 😀 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XStar Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 2 hours ago, RoadRunner said: Please explain... If the ultimate goal is to "level the playing field" like you said above. Southridge is in 3A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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