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Purdue/Tennessee Game


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Good game going into the 4th quarter.

Nothing more annoying than players faking injuries on defense vs. a break neck speed offense.

Wonder what discussions, if any, have been had at the rules and competition meetings about this very subject.

Multiple replays showed Purdue defensive players (notably #90) looking at sideline for their direction to "take the fall".

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6 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I agree.....crazy game, but fun to watch. Not sure how much can be done for the fake injuries. About the only thing you can do is make guys sit for the remainder of the possession. 

👍. I believe the announcers discussed that. Tough thing is, who is to “judge” if it is fake or not?  Replay folks?

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35 minutes ago, Irishman said:

yep......at least saying anyone out for an injury is out for the series eliminates any judgment calls. 

👍 

14 minutes ago, temptation said:

Both defenses seemed to be “social distancing.”

Well done Sir. Well done. 😂 

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Gutsy win by Purdue given the opt outs and injuries.

Still not sure Tennessee doesn’t score 100 in regulation with even a semi-competent QB. I counted six miss/overthrows by UT QB that should have been TD’s, not including the two on the last drive when they shouldn’t have been throwing deep in the first place. Heupel was terrible. Tennessee just can’t get out of its own way.

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1 hour ago, Staxawax said:

I have to applaud the Tennessee fan base.  How many were there?  50,000?  Host cities would have to drool every time it's announced that UT is coming to play in their bowl.

It didn’t hurt that the game was in Nashville.

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1 hour ago, DE said:

👍

Announcers said about a 3 hour ride from UT and about a 5 hour ride from PU.

The entire state of Tennessee is largely UT fans....especially eastern to central, including Nashville. They should have represented strong in the state's largest city.   

Nice W for Purdue...considering they lost their 2 best players going into the game.....

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23 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

The entire state of Tennessee is largely UT fans....especially eastern to central, including Nashville. They should have represented strong in the state's largest city.   

Nice W for Purdue...considering they lost their 2 best players going into the game.....

👍

I have seen a LOT of "arm chair" officials come out of the woodwork since the game ended.  Especially on the forward progress call in OT that negated a UT TD.  I only saw clips of the play, but what I did see was a lot going on right at the point of contact by the UT runner and PU defender until the play was whistled dead.

But like you said, a nice win for Purdue.

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14 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Gutsy win by Purdue given the opt outs and injuries.

Still not sure Tennessee doesn’t score 100 in regulation with even a semi-competent QB. I counted six miss/overthrows by UT QB that should have been TD’s, not including the two on the last drive when they shouldn’t have been throwing deep in the first place. Heupel was terrible. Tennessee just can’t get out of its own way.

I was wondering why they were throwing that way too.  We all know Heupel knows his team way better than any of us......have to wonder if he knew his team was simply exhausted and he had to go for the win then.

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4 hours ago, DE said:

👍

I have seen a LOT of "arm chair" officials come out of the woodwork since the game ended.  Especially on the forward progress call in OT that negated a UT TD.  I only saw clips of the play, but what I did see was a lot going on right at the point of contact by the UT runner and PU defender until the play was whistled dead.

But like you said, a nice win for Purdue.

Rules are rules.

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39 minutes ago, SenatorFan said:

Tennessee was robbed of a TD. No way he was down or forward progress was stopped. Play to the whistle. 

1. Nobody knows when the whistle blew

2. The replay kept showing the side judge running up to the play calling for timeout, but no replay showed when he started his run or when he blew the whistle.  I suspect it was much earlier.

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7 minutes ago, Staxawax said:

1. Nobody knows when the whistle blew

2. The replay kept showing the side judge running up to the play calling for timeout, but no replay showed when he started his run or when he blew the whistle.  I suspect it was much earlier.

On a play like this, the whistle is basically irrelevant. The ball is dead when the covering official determines, in his judgment, that the runner’s forward progress is stopped. Doesn’t matter when the whistle blew. Doesn’t matter when he started into the field of play. Doesn’t matter when he started to signal the clock to stop. All that matters is the location of the foremost point of the ball when he determines the runner’s forward progress was stopped.

55 minutes ago, SenatorFan said:

 Play to the whistle. 

No. Play until the ball is dead. Then stop.

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1 hour ago, Bobref said:

On a play like this, the whistle is basically irrelevant. The ball is dead when the covering official determines, in his judgment, that the runner’s forward progress is stopped. Doesn’t matter when the whistle blew. Doesn’t matter when he started into the field of play. Doesn’t matter when he started to signal the clock to stop. All that matters is the location of the foremost point of the ball when he determines the runner’s forward progress was stopped.

No. Play until the ball is dead. Then stop.

In your opinion do you think forward progress was stopped too early? I get it if it’s a QB and he’s been gain tackled behind the LOS, but on 4th and G from the 1 in OT, I think the progress was stopped way prematurely.

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6 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

In your opinion do you think forward progress was stopped too early? I get it if it’s a QB and he’s been gain tackled behind the LOS, but on 4th and G from the 1 in OT, I think the progress was stopped way prematurely.

I saw no reason to second guess the covering official.

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10 hours ago, Bobref said:

I saw no reason to second guess the covering official.

Hey Bob...there are photos of another Tennessee player picking up the ball carrier and trying to pull him into the end zone on that same 4th down play at the goal line.  Is that legal today?  I remember the infamous ND USC game with Leinart (I believe) pushing Bush to the end zone.  Can you offer your thoughts on this type of play being allowed?

 

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21 hours ago, SenatorFan said:

Tennessee was robbed of a TD. No way he was down or forward progress was stopped. Play to the whistle. 

We need to get away from using the word "robbed" in situations like this. It implies the official intentionally made the call incorrectly to benefit Purdue. That questions the credibility of the officials and calling him a cheater. That is absolutely not true.  This is a judgement call and it's perfectly understandable to disagree with the judgement. The proliferation of this kind of accusation by players, coaches, fans, and media indirectly contributes to the departure of younger officials and leading to a shortage. If you don't see the connection between comments like this and youth games having to be cancelled or high school varsity games being moved to Thursday or Saturday then I'm not sure I can hlep you.

20 hours ago, Bobref said:

On a play like this, the whistle is basically irrelevant. The ball is dead when the covering official determines, in his judgment, that the runner’s forward progress is stopped. Doesn’t matter when the whistle blew. Doesn’t matter when he started into the field of play. Doesn’t matter when he started to signal the clock to stop. All that matters is the location of the foremost point of the ball when he determines the runner’s forward progress was stopped.

No. Play until the ball is dead. Then stop.

This is such a valid point. I've seen arguments like this posted on line and shared by so-called experts (didn't help the live announcers used it as a point). When I see someone using this argument to indicate it should have been a TD they lose any credibility with me. At least know the rules if you are going to voice your opinion of the call.

19 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

In your opinion do you think forward progress was stopped too early? I get it if it’s a QB and he’s been gain tackled behind the LOS, but on 4th and G from the 1 in OT, I think the progress was stopped way prematurely.

Progress is as much an art as a science. There are is absolute or black and white on this. There are key things you try to use to apply it consistently but those aren't absolutely either. For example, if he's still churning his feet you let it go. But in this case he's lying on top of a defender and I don't think he's feet are giving him much leverage. This official was in this game for a reason (this was the #3 bowl game for the ACC including the national championship next week) and the covering official was in the NFL development pool. He's more than qualified to make this call and was very confident in making the call. I'm good with that. But this wasn't an obvious call either way. You are not incorrect to argue he could have let it play out. That brings up another issue listed below.

1 hour ago, Bash Riprock said:

Hey Bob...there are photos of another Tennessee player picking up the ball carrier and trying to pull him into the end zone on that same 4th down play at the goal line.  Is that legal today?  I remember the infamous ND USC game with Leinart (I believe) pushing Bush to the end zone.  Can you offer your thoughts on this type of play being allowed?

 

You can PUSH a runner or pile, but you can't PULL a runner. It's a rare call because it rarely happens and if you are going to call you need to make sure it's huge. On a 4th down play in OT it really needs to be huge. Did it truly impact the play? If you are going to let it play out here and you feel that pull allowed the runner to extend his arm with the ball then you can absolutely flag it here. If they had ruled TD and flagged him for assisting the runner, UT gets to replay the down from the 6. If you are flagging it you are saying the only reason UT scored was because his arm was pulled enough to free it to extend to the goal line. So UT benefits by getting another down even though they were stopped short and committed a foul that led to a score. If that happened and UT scores on the replay of the down it wouldn't have surprised me to see a call for assisting the runner to become a loss of down penalty.

The other things I this this shows in regards to progress though is this player pulling him doesn't help get his body any further forward. That's a pretty good indication his progress is stopped. That's why I think from an analysis standpoint watching the replay multiple times I like the call made on the field. It's not an invalid argument to say his progress wasn't stopped and continue to let it play out. But only one opinion ultimately matters. If this official is hired by the NFL in the next couple years we'll know the powers that be are good with his judgement.

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I apologize if my emotional use of the word “robbed” upset you JustRules. I respectfully believe the implication that I called the official a cheater or felt he favored Purdue intentionally exists only in your mind. I know it does not exist in my mind or heart. 
 

Nor do I believe I am personally responsible for the lack of officials on any level of the game. I take caution to refrain from criticizing the officials verbally when I am watching a game either in person or via media. I understand fully that it is impossible for myself or any fan to have the same view of a play as the official licensed and sanctioned to make a call. 
 

My knowledge of the rules or lack thereof does not disqualify me from having an opinion and expressing that opinion on this forum. If that were the case then only officials would be allowed to post on here. 
 

My opinion is that the official made a mistake and that mistake changed the outcome of the game. I “saw” a player who didn’t quit playing. I “saw” a TD. As a fan rooting for TN to beat Purdue, I emotionally responded on-line. My mistake. Doesn’t make me or the official a bad guy, just humans. 
 

I do find it interesting that there seems to be a unwillingness among the officials on this website to ever admit that an official can make a mistake or miss a call. That’s probably just an implication that I read into your responses and not intentional on your part. 
 

I respectfully ask that I be allowed to be a fan(fanatic) and I will allow you to be an official(judge). I won’t use emotional verbiage or tell you how to interpret the rules, if you won’t accuse me of implying things I didn’t or having no creditability and causing people to not want to officiate football games. 
 

After all if we met on the street or in public we would find we have more in common than not. We might even be brothers. Deal? 😊

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Great reply SenatorFan. It's entirely possible many fans don't realize how they contribute to the abuse of officials and words like "robbed" have very specific meaning. You personally aren't responsible for our shortage but comments like the ones you made collectively do. It's important to point that out when we see it.

Less of a concern but something to consider as well. Judgement calls are just that. The official making the call has training, rules knowledge, mechanics knowledge, philosophy knowledge all in their tool box to see what they see and make a judgement. Angles and other players in the way contribute to that judgement as well. In many cases these types of judgements will not have a right or wrong answer. Even with the benefit of excellent video you could have disagreement among officials on judgement calls like this. That's why many officials who respond to plays like this are going to support it even if they think they may have had a different judgement on the field. 

In this particular play most of the officials I've talked to have said they felt it was the right judgement but others say they would have let it play out a little longer and rule TD. Most of the latter group though also said they would have also flagged the other UT player for assisting the runner. That is a huge assertion because that's a very rare foul and needs to be huge. I'm sure there are officials out there who feel this should have been a TD with no foul for assisting the runner, but I haven't talked to one yet. And trust me, this play is a huge point of conversation among officials around the country. The difference is we recognize this as a difference in judgement and not an "I'm right and you are wrong" situation.

When a call is blatantly wrong is when the rule is misapplied or an official is out of position to make a call. These are things the officials often notice but fans rarely see. I always find that fascinating. For example, there was a play in the Sugar Bowl where Baylor QB/RB missed a handoff and they ended up with a busted play. The QB scrambled and found a receiver for a pass that gained about 9 yards. The LT had gone to the second level to block when he realized it was a busted play. At that point he was 6-7 yards downfield. He ran back toward the LOS before the pass was thrown. The announcers noted it, but commended him for getting back before the pass was thrown. Unfortunately that is wrong by rule. This was a miss by the crew that did not involve judgement. 6-7 yards is well beyond the allowed 3 yards and it was well before the pass was thrown. The U and probably the L will get downgrades on this.

So yes, have an opinion on calls, but also understand when it's a judgement call or a rules application that is more black/white. Disagree with the call but realize it's not necessarily right or wrong. Also realize you may not completely know or understand the rule.

Bobref's intent in sharing thoughts on these posts is to educate, and I think he does an excellent job. I try to do my little part as well.

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Friends went to the game. I saw later on dvr. Glad for Purdue win. Reveal in how much Karlaftis and Bell meant. unwatchable defensively. played in ff with pausing to watch most staggering lowlights. What in the world will the Boilers look like on D next year?

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