temptation Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 28 minutes ago, psaboy said: Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. @Footballking16 doesn’t understand that it’s a moving target. He will bend, stretch and move the goalposts however far is necessary to try to deflect from the facts staring him right in the face. Its extremely entertaining. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, psaboy said: Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. Come again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AG Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 20 minutes ago, AG said: Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. Great sports programs at Pioneer. They could make a case for best in the state pound for pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 2 hours ago, psaboy said: Yep, the State Street and Maplecrest corridor has definitely turned into a ghetto. Way different from I was running those streets in the 70's & early 80's. Maybe you were just being sarcastic, but the term ghetto is a disservice to those who still live in the Snider district. Not everyone needs to live in the Homestead, Carroll, and Leo districts to validate their status in life. Fun fact: There's more money in St. Joe Township (Snider) than Perry (Carroll) and Aboite (Homestead) even though Aboite is home to the wealthiest zip code in the state. Disclaimer: That stat was from 4 or 5 years ago..........not sure if it still holds true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Even a "unsuccessful" program can have success if it's providing opportunities for students to use athletics as a basis to stay in school, to stay focused on academics and to improve themselves as people. The win-loss results are an indicator of success to the outside world. Sometimes a loss can teach us more than a win. Overcoming adversity can teach us about ourselves. And, we all know that one great vision can turn a program around...especially when a school is ready to support that program. No one would have considered Ben Davis a success in 1973 when Bob Otolski was hired as head coach, stayed a couple of months, then bolted for IU. BD brought in alumnus Bob Wilbur. The Giants were 97-212-12 as a program. Coach Wilbur began to build the program. That got the attention of Carmel's coach at the time, Dick Dullaghan. Coach D will tell you he first began to realize what BD could be when Wilbur's Giants thumped his 1977 Greyhounds team in Sectional. When he left for stints at Purdue and Army with Jim Young and then decided to come back to high school, Ben Davis ended up being his destination. His vision with a supportive administration that wanted to win and a first-class and innovative weight program combined with the talent always present on the Westside took the remains of the program that Wilbur began to build and created the Ben Davis program as we know it that now has a record of 513-379-12 with nine State Championships. I think many have hit on what makes a program successful. I think it's also very difficult to break the cycle of losing these days, so I'd define success as focused more on students and outcomes rather than W-L (which is what we tend to look at from the outside as successful). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 47 minutes ago, AG said: Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. Wow, why the large discrepancy between the two levels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, BTF said: Come again? "That's what she said." 49 minutes ago, AG said: Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. Not yelling at you, but WHAT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCTigerFan07 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, AG said: Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. 31 minutes ago, temptation said: Wow, why the large discrepancy between the two levels? 31 minutes ago, DE said: Not yelling at you, but WHAT? I echo these posts .... HOW can the elementary enrollements and Jr/Sr high free and reduced lunches have such a discrepancy?!?!?! Can any Pioneer folks explain what is going on? Edited February 18, 2022 by NLCTigerFan07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarab527 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 17 hours ago, temptation said: Name a school that is over 50 percent free and reduced lunch and is not in the top half of its class in enrollment and has had long term success. I’ll wait… Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 17 minutes ago, scarab527 said: Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. Clocking in at a tad under 65%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 20 minutes ago, scarab527 said: Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. Excellent example. I believe there are a few more factors that are in play. It appears he has complete support from upper admin-building admin (philosophy, hiring of staff that teach at MCSC, etc.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 16 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said: I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf. Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch. Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success". 4A 99 Marion 1036 69.33% 105 Connersville 981 50.77% 106 Beech Grove 968 58.01% 112 Indianapolis Washington 906 63.82% 119 Western 838 51.23% 121 Mississinewa 808 53.01% 123 South Bend Washington 801 67.34% 128 South Bend Clay 778 53.60% Per Indiana DOE information shouldn't "4A" Frankfort be on your list: https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1011700997/population Enrollment: 899 Economically disadvantaged rate: 68% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragdoll Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, BDGiant93 said: Even a "unsuccessful" program can have success if it's providing opportunities for students to use athletics as a basis to stay in school, to stay focused on academics and to improve themselves as people. The win-loss results are an indicator of success to the outside world. Sometimes a loss can teach us more than a win. Overcoming adversity can teach us about ourselves. And, we all know that one great vision can turn a program around...especially when a school is ready to support that program. No one would have considered Ben Davis a success in 1973 when Bob Otolski was hired as head coach, stayed a couple of months, then bolted for IU. BD brought in alumnus Bob Wilbur. The Giants were 97-212-12 as a program. Coach Wilbur began to build the program. That got the attention of Carmel's coach at the time, Dick Dullaghan. Coach D will tell you he first began to realize what BD could be when Wilbur's Giants thumped his 1977 Greyhounds team in Sectional. When he left for stints at Purdue and Army with Jim Young and then decided to come back to high school, Ben Davis ended up being his destination. His vision with a supportive administration that wanted to win and a first-class and innovative weight program combined with the talent always present on the Westside took the remains of the program that Wilbur began to build and created the Ben Davis program as we know it that now has a record of 513-379-12 with nine State Championships. I think many have hit on what makes a program successful. I think it's also very difficult to break the cycle of losing these days, so I'd define success as focused more on students and outcomes rather than W-L (which is what we tend to look at from the outside as successful). My first exposure to serious football was my best friend's much older brother playing for Coach Wilbur at BD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCTigerFan07 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 50 minutes ago, Muda69 said: Per Indiana DOE information shouldn't "4A" Frankfort be on your list: https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1011700997/population Enrollment: 899 Economically disadvantaged rate: 68% That is not the source I was using nor the metric we were using here. We were using % of Free/Reduced lunch. I provided my source previously. Frankfort High School had a 41.66% mark for Free/Reduced lunch. Besides, doesn't really add the the discussion. They would fit right into @temptation arguement that if a school is in the bottom half of their class by enrollment, and above 50% free/reduced lunch, they likely do not see sustained success. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, scarab527 said: Your point holds, but I think the right coach can make up for some of this. Since Phil Mason took over at MC 6 years ago, they’ve won 3 regionals. They’re one of the smallest schools in 5A and while I’m not sure, I’d bet the house they’re over 50% free/reduced lunch. Helluva job by Coach Mason. Possibly the hardest working coach in the state. Kudos to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCTigerFan07 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said: I have gotten through 4A, 5A and 6A based on the 21-22 DOE Enrollment Data that was posted here on the GID as well as Free/Reduced Lunch % for the high school's based on this website https://www.in.gov/doe/files/2021-school-fr-data.pdf. Here are the schools that fit your criteria of bottom half of their class by enrollment and over 50% free/reduced lunch. Everyone - feel free to debate if any of these schools have had "long-term success". 6A 21 Southport 2379 69.22% 22 Perry Meridian 2373 58.50% 23 Portage 2269 55.92% 24 Lawrence Central 2245 64.11% 27 Lafayette Jefferson 2153 61.71% 28 Indianapolis Arsenal Tech 2111 67.18% 5A 49 Hammond Morton 1729 53.46% 56 Mishawaka 1584 51.21% 61 Michigan City 1526 71.01% 62 Fort Wayne North Side 1513 55.72% 4A 99 Marion 1036 69.33% 105 Connersville 981 50.77% 106 Beech Grove 968 58.01% 112 Indianapolis Washington 906 63.82% 119 Western 838 51.23% 121 Mississinewa 808 53.01% 123 South Bend Washington 801 67.34% 128 South Bend Clay 778 53.60% Just looking at it, Mishawaka (4 sectional titles in 5A since 2015), Mississinewa (3 sectional titles since 2017) and Michigan City (3 sectional titles since 2017) are the only ones who I would classify as successful. Marion had a good run with two Regional Championships in 2018 and 2020. Lafayette Jefferson has struggled in their sectionals with tough matchups usually including either Carmel or Merrillville. Follow up to my previous post. Here are the schools that fit the @temptation criteria in 1A, 2A and 3A 3A 161 Calumet 622 65.02% 184 West Vigo 525 53.96% 190 River Forest 511 68.66% 2A 227 Switzerland County 428 50.12% 236 Elwood 410 56.38% 244 Lake Station Edison 388 70.23% 245 LaVille 388 53.28% 246 North Knox 388 54.81% 1A 289 North White 272 73.68% 295 Culver 255 51.02% 298 Union City 246 55.22% Of these schools, the only ones you could even give remote consideration to as being "long-term successful" in the last decade would be: LaVille (2 Sectional Championships since 2017 with 4 other Sectional Championship appeareances and a 70-31 record since Coach Hostrawser took over) Calumet (Sectional title in 2020, winning record last 4 seasons) You'd have STRETCH arguement for North Knox (no postseason championships, but doesn't help being in the sectionals they've been in). Edited February 18, 2022 by NLCTigerFan07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psaboy Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 4 hours ago, BTF said: Maybe you were just being sarcastic, but the term ghetto is a disservice to those who still live in the Snider district. Not everyone needs to live in the Homestead, Carroll, and Leo districts to validate their status in life. Fun fact: There's more money in St. Joe Township (Snider) than Perry (Carroll) and Aboite (Homestead) even though Aboite is home to the wealthiest zip code in the state. Disclaimer: That stat was from 4 or 5 years ago..........not sure if it still holds true. It was a bit on the sarcasm side. The area has changed for sure, but definitely not a "white flight" area for sure. Can I still say that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muda69 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 2 hours ago, NLCTigerFan07 said: That is not the source I was using nor the metric we were using here. We were using % of Free/Reduced lunch. I provided my source previously. Frankfort High School had a 41.66% mark for Free/Reduced lunch. Economically disadvantaged rate = Free/Reduced Lunch rate. Probably also includes those on free/reduced textbooks as well. That percentage used to be labeled as such on the Indiana DOE website, but "economically disadvantaged" is the new PC term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDGiant93 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 4 hours ago, ragdoll said: My first exposure to serious football was my best friend's much older brother playing for Coach Wilbur at BD. Coach Wilbur sometimes gets overlooked (Used to by me) until I actually educated myself on his years here and what happened prior to his arrival. BD had a total of six winning seasons prior to his arrival form 1937-1972. In 1972, they went 0-10. He went 59-53 here and strung together five straight winning seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue Pete Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 8 hours ago, AG said: Pioneer has a very successful program and was, in the past ten years, in the bottom 20 of enrollment for the entire state. The enrollment is now in the top 20 for 1A. 35% of the Jr/Sr HS receives free lunches, while 98% of the elementary enrollment receives free lunches. So the 2 keys are 1) be a 1A school and 2) have Jack Kiser got it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTF Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 4 hours ago, psaboy said: It was a bit on the sarcasm side. The area has changed for sure, but definitely not a "white flight" area for sure. Can I still say that?? Lol. Yeah, you can say that. It's definitely more blue collar than it was 30 years ago. Many white collar families in the area send their kids to Bishop Dwenger, Concordia, and Blackhawk Christian. And for anyone wondering, the money comment about the Snider district is mainly due to the amount of homes in St. Joe Township. Per capita income certainly isn't what it is in the outlaying districts. Back in the 80's, I imagine that Snider was probably in the top half of 5a in enrollment. But as other communities grew, Snider's enrollment shrunk. So they were probably in the bottom half sometime in the late 90's, and certainly toward the bottom their last ten years in the big school division. Free lunch rate was probably in the teens in the 80's and slowly crept up to where we are now in the 40's. That being said, Snider is where they belong at the 5a level, but will gladly compete with the 6a big boys with any opportunity they get. They'll be good in 2022, but whether they are 'Snider of old' good remains to be seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 3 hours ago, BTF said: Lol. Yeah, you can say that. It's definitely more blue collar than it was 30 years ago. Many white collar families in the area send their kids to Bishop Dwenger, Concordia, and Blackhawk Christian. And for anyone wondering, the money comment about the Snider district is mainly due to the amount of homes in St. Joe Township. Per capita income certainly isn't what it is in the outlaying districts. Back in the 80's, I imagine that Snider was probably in the top half of 5a in enrollment. But as other communities grew, Snider's enrollment shrunk. So they were probably in the bottom half sometime in the late 90's, and certainly toward the bottom their last ten years in the big school division. Free lunch rate was probably in the teens in the 80's and slowly crept up to where we are now in the 40's. That being said, Snider is where they belong at the 5a level, but will gladly compete with the 6a big boys with any opportunity they get. They'll be good in 2022, but whether they are 'Snider of old' good remains to be seen. Paging @Footballking16… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragdoll Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 On 2/18/2022 at 3:32 PM, BDGiant93 said: Coach Wilbur sometimes gets overlooked (Used to by me) until I actually educated myself on his years here and what happened prior to his arrival. BD had a total of six winning seasons prior to his arrival form 1937-1972. In 1972, they went 0-10. He went 59-53 here and strung together five straight winning seasons. And a missed xp away from NFL Hall of Famer Morten Andersen in 1977 semistate against Reitz of maybe moving on to the championship. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AG Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 On 2/18/2022 at 8:58 AM, BTF said: Great sports programs at Pioneer. They could make a case for best in the state pound for pound. Oh definitely, especially the girl's volleyball, basketball, and softball programs. They probably are, pound for pound, the best public school athletically in the state in the last 10 years, definitely in the last 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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