Cinderella is a myth

[JQWL]

16 minutes ago, 812FB said:

A lot of talk about Sagarin to solve a complex problem.

Could someone please explain to me why a computer ranking system would be used over a committee of coaches when determining seeding and/or qualifiers?

I would agree with everything that was said so far and also the speed in which the match-ups would be set. If we have the IHSAA set up a committee of coaches to seed the tournament, we wouldn't have the results until March.

[DumfriesYMCA]

1 minute ago, Footballking16 said:

What percent of coaches have seen half the teams they are seeding/qualifying let alone the entire field? High school football coaches don't have that luxury. 

Also there's a ton less bias in computer rankings such as Sagarin as compared to the human element. 

Not the entire field

 

seed sectionals.  Coaches of that sectional seed each other.  Regionals and beyond can stay with the same format.  
 

4-8 HCs can figure it out…at the least they could put the best 2 teams on opposite sides even if there is disagreement over who is #1 

[Muda69]

50 minutes ago, 812FB said:

A lot of talk about Sagarin to solve a complex problem.

Could someone please explain to me why a computer ranking system would be used over a committee of coaches when determining seeding and/or qualifiers?

If a computer can now "solve" the game of Chess it can rank a few high school football games.

 

[scarab527]

Just now, Muda69 said:

If a computer can now "solve" the game of Chess it can rank a few high school football games.

 

In chess there are objective 'best moves' based on the game state, etc. This is why a computer can figure that out. They don't do as well with subjectivity. 

[812FB]

OK, I'm hearing a complete lack of faith in a committee of coaches seeding IHSAA's football tournament but are cool with 15 coaches seeding the entire IHSAA's wrestling tournament? That just doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

Again, I'm Switzerland when it comes to this stuff. But I've got to admit, relying on a single computer ratings system (CRS) isn't something that I would want to happen. Especially when there are at least 3, that I know of, out there to use right now. And all three of them have flaws. The one CRS, in my opinion, that has the most glaring flaw (Sagarin) is the one that is being pushed or used for an example makes zero sense to me. I can't get on board having that system determining whether or not a school like Evansville Harrison is either playing this Friday or watching. I might get on board if an average rank using the combination of the three are used but that's just me. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by 812FB

[812FB]

4 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

If a computer can now "solve" the game of Chess it can rank a few high school football games.

 

Yeah, apples and oranges as someone has already pointed out. 

[JQWL]

3 minutes ago, 812FB said:

OK, I'm hearing a complete lack of faith in a committee of coaches seeding IHSAA's football tournament but are cool with 15 coaches seeding the entire IHSAA's wrestling tournament? That just doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

Again, I'm Switzerland when it comes to this stuff. But I've got to admit, relying on a single computer ratings system (CRS) isn't something that I would want to happen. Especially when there are at least 3, that I know of, out there to use right now. And all three of them have flaws. The one CRS, in my opinion, that has the most glaring flaw (Sagarin) is the one that is being pushed or used for an example makes zero sense to me. I can't get on board having that system determining whether or not a school like Evansville Harrison is either playing this Friday or watching. I might get on board if a average rank using the combination of the three are used but that's just me. 

I've never heard anything positive when wrestling coaches talk about how their tournament is seeded. That was actually what popped in my mind when it was mentioned here.

[slice60]

Every team sport knockout tournament sanctioned by the IHSAA in an all-in tournament. If football is changed to a qualify-only tournament, then the IHSAA SHOULD do the same for all sports. So if you limit postseason play for hundreds of football teams, you SHOULD do the same to THOUSANDS of other teams in those sports-- including the sacred cow of boys basketball.

That's never going to happen. 

So you guys can keep telling each other why your ideas are great & should be incorporated but it will NEVER happen.

p.s. You obviously forgot about the old Cluster system & the older Points system. Every year, some very good teams did NOT make the tournament because those systems were flawed. Every qualifying system you come up with will be flawed in some way. And then you guys would be the first to scream that the IHSAA f'd up your great ideas.

[812FB]

Just now, JQWL said:

I've never heard anything positive when wrestling coaches talk about how their tournament is seeded. That was actually what popped in my mind when it was mentioned here.

Sure you're gonna get complaints. Which makes sense. But are they somewhat fair seedings?

[slice60]

7 minutes ago, 812FB said:

OK, I'm hearing a complete lack of faith in a committee of coaches seeding IHSAA's football tournament but are cool with 15 coaches seeding the entire IHSAA's wrestling tournament? That just doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

 

Wrestling sectionals are seeded based upon a set of previously agreed-upon criteria. There is no seeding after the sectional level-- the Regional brackets are based on Sectional placement, the Semistate brackets are based on Regional placement, the State brackets are based on Semistate placement.

[MonkeyButt]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in GA all schools that make up their region play in the same classification. In Indiana we have several conferences comprised of teams that represent multiple classifications. It wouldn't make sense to do it that way under the current climate.

Now I could get on board with making current sectionals your de facto conference or region or district or whatever verbiage you want to use, but you'd still have a bunch of people butthurt over traditional rivalries getting discontinued. 

Yes that is correct which is another issue, success factor. Georgia also has the Independent league for private schools. So there is that too.

 

[JQWL]

3 minutes ago, 812FB said:

Sure you're gonna get complaints. Which makes sense. But are they somewhat fair seedings?

To be fair, I don't follow wrestling at all. I just know what I hear from wrestling coaches and they would say, No. They don't feel they're fair. I personally have no idea.

I know when I look at the sectionals that are in our area, if I were to seed them using the Sagarin ratings, it seems pretty fair to me. Maybe not perfect but it looks pretty good and I feel the best two teams would be there at the end.

[Footballking16]

8 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Every team sport knockout tournament sanctioned by the IHSAA in an all-in tournament. If football is changed to a qualify-only tournament, then the IHSAA SHOULD do the same for all sports. So if you limit postseason play for hundreds of football teams, you SHOULD do the same to THOUSANDS of other teams in those sports-- including the sacred cow of boys basketball.

I support qualifying formats for all sports. It doesn't get rehashed on here because this is a football forum. 

 

8 minutes ago, slice60 said:

That's never going to happen.

Until it does. Never say never. 

 

8 minutes ago, slice60 said:

So you guys can keep telling each other why your ideas are great & should be incorporated but it will NEVER happen.

It will never happen if there isn't a continued push year after year. People likely thought the same thing about legalized marijuana or online betting....until it happened.

 

8 minutes ago, slice60 said:

p.s. You obviously forgot about the old Cluster system & the older Points system. Every year, some very good teams did NOT make the tournament because those systems were flawed. Every qualifying system you come up with will be flawed in some way. And then you guys would be the first to scream that the IHSAA f'd up your great ideas.

The old cluster and points system didn't include half the field at the conclusion of the regular system. No very good teams are going to be left out in a qualifying format that includes half the field. There will be a handful of bubble teams fighting for the last few spots come the last week of the regular season. With that, it brings a great deal of emphasis and real value meaning to the last few weeks of the regular season. That should be accepted, not scorned. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Footballking16

[Muda69]

13 minutes ago, 812FB said:

Yeah, apples and oranges as someone has already pointed out. 

Not really.  It all really just boils down to math.  And that's is really all a computer is, a very fast machine that is good at manipulating zeroes and ones.

 

 

[812FB]

15 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Not really.  It all really just boils down to math.  And that's is really all a computer is, a very fast machine that is good at manipulating zeroes and ones.

 

 

Yes really. Creating algorithms for a game of chess has a completely different math objective than the subjective logic of creating a ranking system for sport teams. Excuse the pun but these are two separate objectives to solve mathematically. 

28 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Wrestling sectionals are seeded based upon a set of previously agreed-upon criteria. There is no seeding after the sectional level-- the Regional brackets are based on Sectional placement, the Semistate brackets are based on Regional placement, the State brackets are based on Semistate placement.

How is that criteria agreed-upon? A computer ranking system?

[DumfriesYMCA]

Simple idea 

 

1) KEEP all in format 

2) coaches of a sectional are in charge of seeding. 

3) coaches determine who the top 50% of the sectional is and seed only those 2-4 teams

4) the other 2-4 teams are random draw for who they play 

everyone is happy 

Edited October 18, 2022 by DumfriesYMCA

[Muda69]

13 minutes ago, 812FB said:

Yes really. Creating algorithms for a game of chess has a completely different math objective than the subjective logic of creating a ranking system for sport teams. Excuse the pun but these are two separate objectives to solve mathematically. 

 

Of course the algorithms would be different, Chief.  I never claimed otherwise.  But both are problems that can effectively be solved by a computer.  

 

 

10 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Simple idea 

 

1) KEEP all in format 

2) coaches of a sectional are in charge of seeding. 

3) coaches determine who the top 50% of the sectional is and seed only those 2-4 teams

4) the other 2-4 teams are random draw for who they play 

everyone is happy 

Who is going to step in when the fisticuffs start? Or is that a give part of this seeding process?

 

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

seed sectionals.  Coaches of that sectional seed each other.   

 

14 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Who is going to step in when the fisticuffs start? Or is that a give part of this seeding process?

 

I’m getting this mental image of Russ Radtke and Kirk Kennedy back in the day, sitting down over a couple of beers and chatting about seeding their sectional. 🤣😂

[hhpatriot04]

32 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Simple idea 

 

1) KEEP all in format 

2) coaches of a sectional are in charge of seeding. 

3) coaches determine who the top 50% of the sectional is and seed only those 2-4 teams

4) the other 2-4 teams are random draw for who they play 

everyone is happy 

This is my preference. Seed 1-4, random draw opponents.

[812FB]

14 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Of course the algorithms would be different, Chief.  I never claimed otherwise.  But both are problems that can effectively be solved by a computer.  

Boss, which one of these programs effectively solved the problem?
3A class rank of Norwell - Sagarin: 1 Calpreps: 6 Massey: 4

 

[DumfriesYMCA]

26 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

 

Who is going to step in when the fisticuffs start? Or is that a give part of this seeding process?

 

Oh come on….it’s 2022…you really think they are going to do this in person? Lol 

it’s going to be a zoom call.

coaches don’t even have to make a drive to exchange tapes.  It’s all done from their phone/computer. 

[Basementbias]

52 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Simple idea 

 

1) KEEP all in format 

2) coaches of a sectional are in charge of seeding. 

3) coaches determine who the top 50% of the sectional is and seed only those 2-4 teams

4) the other 2-4 teams are random draw for who they play 

everyone is happy 

Absolutely!

[hhpatriot04]

18 minutes ago, 812FB said:

Boss, which one of these programs effectively solved the problem?
3A class rank of Norwell - Sagarin: 1 Calpreps: 6 Massey: 4

 

I assume Norwell is the No. 1 or 2 team in its sectional.

What's the problem?

[Bash Riprock]

53 minutes ago, DumfriesYMCA said:

Simple idea 

 

1) KEEP all in format 

2) coaches of a sectional are in charge of seeding. 

3) coaches determine who the top 50% of the sectional is and seed only those 2-4 teams

4) the other 2-4 teams are random draw for who they play 

everyone is happy 

I vote we go with coin tosses....worked for Odessa Permian and Midland Lee.......

 

[foxbat]

18 minutes ago, 812FB said:

Boss, which one of these programs effectively solved the problem?
3A class rank of Norwell - Sagarin: 1 Calpreps: 6 Massey: 4

 

And therein lies the problem.  It's not whether a computer can do the math, it's the question of the algorithm employed ...  and, as this thread has shown, we haven't even gotten anywhere close to algorithms yet.