Sectional Draw 2023

[Rodney]

2 minutes ago, BTF said:

1.     Agree

2.    Agree

On your last point: More than agree. That would make for one hell of a class. 

Old, fat, hairy guys who wear their t-shirts too small?

We'd beat anyone in 5a last year by at least 40

[Boilernation]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

5A--average Sagarin 94

4A top 32---average Sagarin 67

All of 4A---average Sagarin 132

Again there isn't a wide disparity between 4A and 5A top to bottom, especially at the top, which was the premise of the original argument. 

You split 4A in half to get the average of 67. Split 5A in half and the top half has an average of 39. Just go with Top 10's and it's 6 one way half dozen the other.  I believe the original argument was that 4A was much stronger than 5A. At this point I've kind of lost interest.

  I will say 5A will provide much more of an entertaining playoff. East Central and Chatard are primed to easily cruise through 4A and 3A. Without looking at enrollments I'm not sure how it would impact EC and Chatard or even Roncalli, but I do agree with some mentions on this thread that 1A should be cut in half and start bumping up. 

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Boilernation said:

You split 4A in half to get the average of 67. Split 5A in half and the top half has an average of 39. Just go with Top 10's and it's 6 one way half dozen the other.  I believe the original argument was that 4A was much stronger than 5A. At this point I've kind of lost interest.

  I will say 5A will provide much more of an entertaining playoff. East Central and Chatard are primed to easily cruise through 4A and 3A. Without looking at enrollments I'm not sure how it would impact EC and Chatard or even Roncalli, but I do agree with some mentions on this thread that 1A should be cut in half and start bumping up. 

I was asked to split 4A in half. I also did top to bottom averages for both 4A and 5A. There isn't a huge difference once everything is averaged out. 

And the original argument was that 5A has been watered down since the inception of the success factor because the majority of 5A state champions have come from 4A enrollment schools. 

[Rodney]

20 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I was asked to split 4A in half. I also did top to bottom averages for both 4A and 5A. There isn't a huge difference once everything is averaged out. 

And the original argument was that 5A has been watered down since the inception of the success factor because the majority of 5A state champions have come from 4A enrollment schools. 

When we talk about the strength of a class I dont imagine anyone thinks of any team outside the top 5

 

As in last year the 4a top 5 beats anyone in 5a

 

This year EC beats anyone in 5a, after that I have no idea probably a mix

[Footballking16]

1 minute ago, Rodney said:

When we talk about the strength of a class I dont imagine anyone thinks of any team outside the top 5

I would agree to that and why many people think 4A and 5A are interchangeable and why 3A belongs in the discussion some years. 

[Rodney]

I've said before I believe memorial could have won 5a last year, though they wouldn't have been favorites

I doubt many will disagree that chatard could make a run most years

 

Valpo could have at least made it to state in 4a last year? They would have gotten massacred though

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Boilernation said:

I will say 5A will provide much more of an entertaining playoff. 

I think 5A north could be Snider, Valpo, or Merrillville. Mishawaka will have something to say. Any game involving those four will be fun to watch. 

[Lysander]

22 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

I’m curious as to how many people on here actually know who Wilbur Snyder is. The young folks have probably never heard of him. Heck, most don’t even know Dick the Bruiser which feels like a crime if you’re a Hoosier.

I was in downtown Chicago the weekend of “Crusherfest” in Milwaukee this summer.  I damn near made the extra trip just to pay homage to him (and, maybe, hear some tall tales of his years with the “Bruiser) and drink some of Milwaukee’s Finest.

https://www.crusherfest.org

I also lived in the same apartment complex as Slamming Sammy Menacker (who used to often commentate on Big Time Wrestling”) one summer.  The black Speedos were probably a bad call by him at the pool, though.

Heck, I did cardiac therapy with Chuck Marlowe.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lysander

[Lysander]

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class?  Not actual championships?  Really?  

So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team.

I, honestly, can’t see anything more definitive as to how 5A measures up.  They were given a “sawed-off” class after complaining about the mega-schools and STILL couldn’t win it 80% of the time.  Seems definitive to me.

If it’s all about the pulling out your “average” when determining who’s best then why bother? It’s like using Indianapolis Tech if you want to have a conversation about 6A football.  Sorry, I’m going to talk about CG, BD, Brownsburg, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, THAT mindset is the problem in 5A…to barely be above the  “average”.

——————————————————————————————————————

As regards East Central, I read somewhere that they were considered the top team in the Cincinnati area at this point.  As to whether that was some poll or actually looking at CalPreps, etc. I don’t know.  With that, they didn’t just beat Moeller this year, they handled them pretty convincingly.  Center Grove barely won on OT.  Btw, this East Central team is pretty much the same as last years.  Most all their “players” are back.

As big a chip on the shoulder as some parts of the state seem to demonstrate by  whining about not getting respected, frankly, lightly populated, hillbilly Southeast Indiana gets crapped on by EVERYBODY….especially teams like East Central and Lawrenceburg.

[foxbat]

43 minutes ago, Lysander said:

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class?  Not actual championships?  Really?  

So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team.
 

And Zionsville was actually ranked 30th in 6A by enrollment in 2019-2020.  Played 6A in 2019, but 5A in 2020 and 2021.

[tango]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class?  Not actual championships?  Really?  

So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team.

I, honestly, can’t see anything more definitive as to how 5A measures up.  They were given a “sawed-off” class after complaining about the mega-schools and STILL couldn’t win it 80% of the time.  Seems definitive to me.

If it’s all about the pulling out your “average” when determining who’s best then why bother? It’s like using Indianapolis Tech if you want to have a conversation about 6A football.  Sorry, I’m going to talk about CG, BD, Brownsburg, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, THAT mindset is the problem in 5A…to barely be above the  “average”.

——————————————————————————————————————

As regards East Central, I read somewhere that they were considered the top team in the Cincinnati area at this point.  As to whether that was some poll or actually looking at CalPreps, etc. I don’t know.  With that, they didn’t just beat Moeller this year, they handled them pretty convincingly.  Center Grove barely won on OT.  Btw, this East Central team is pretty much the same as last years.  Most all their “players” are back.

As big a chip on the shoulder as some parts of the state seem to demonstrate by  whining about not getting respected, frankly, lightly populated, hillbilly Southeast Indiana gets crapped on by EVERYBODY….especially teams like East Central and Lawrenceburg.

I don't see any 6A ball, but EC last year was probably the best HS football team I've seen in person.

[Yuccaguy]

1 hour ago, tango said:

I don't see any 6A ball, but EC last year was probably the best HS football team I've seen in person.

Having seen (as I tend do each season) a cross section of ALL classes within IHSAA FB.  Trust me, EC may be the best in 4A (perhaps 5A also)....  But they ain't winning in 6A, no way, no how!  

6A is a totally different animal than which you have made yourself privy to.  

[PDB26]

14 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

I do like the idea of a 32-team 6A and 1A.  I would add that the 32 in 1A include the 32 smallest public schools.  This is probably not popular, but comparing a rural 1A school to a private school in a metro area is certainly not apples to apples.  

I always thought it made more sense to split 1A into two 32 team classes instead of 5A. As wide as the enrollment ranged in the old 5A, each additional body is more meaningful for those small teams. Of course, I can understand why folks would want a 32 team 6A, but there's no way enrollment is more impactful in the large classes than it is in 1A.

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Lysander said:

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class?  Not actual championships?  Really?  

So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team.

I, honestly, can’t see anything more definitive as to how 5A measures up.  They were given a “sawed-off” class after complaining about the mega-schools and STILL couldn’t win it 80% of the time.  Seems definitive to me.

If it’s all about the pulling out your “average” when determining who’s best then why bother? It’s like using Indianapolis Tech if you want to have a conversation about 6A football.  Sorry, I’m going to talk about CG, BD, Brownsburg, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, THAT mindset is the problem in 5A…to barely be above the  “average”.

——————————————————————————————————————

As regards East Central, I read somewhere that they were considered the top team in the Cincinnati area at this point.  As to whether that was some poll or actually looking at CalPreps, etc. I don’t know.  With that, they didn’t just beat Moeller this year, they handled them pretty convincingly.  Center Grove barely won on OT.  Btw, this East Central team is pretty much the same as last years.  Most all their “players” are back.

As big a chip on the shoulder as some parts of the state seem to demonstrate by  whining about not getting respected, frankly, lightly populated, hillbilly Southeast Indiana gets crapped on by EVERYBODY….especially teams like East Central and Lawrenceburg.

Not sure why you're so angry over this. I think a good healthy debate is okay. At the end of the day both sides make a good argument. Who cares. One thing we can all agree on, and I implore that the IHSAA takes it into consideration, is to make 1A the other 32 team class. But would that water down 4A? Are the teams that are dominating 4A the larger enrollment schools? Without doing any research, I'd love to see New Pal, Roncalli, Reitz, and East Central competing with Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, and Whiteland. What I'd love more is for Snider to win state this year so that they get bumped up to 6A, that'll really give people something to bitch about regarding 5A North. Snider gets to resume competition against the likes of Carmel, Fishers, HSE, and Penn............if of course they survive Carroll and Homestead (wow, it's a new era for sure). East Central bumps up, Cathedral bumps down, creating a force in 5A South. Is 5A still weak at that point? Or does one team make a difference? I think I'll just go back to "who cares." 

[Frozen Tundra]

21 minutes ago, BTF said:

Not sure why you're so angry over this. I think a good healthy debate is okay. At the end of the day both sides make a good argument. Who cares. One thing we can all agree on, and I implore that the IHSAA takes it into consideration, is to make 1A the other 32 team class. But would that water down 4A? Are the teams that are dominating 4A the larger enrollment schools? Without doing any research, I'd love to see New Pal, Roncalli, Reitz, and East Central competing with Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, and Whiteland. What I'd love more is for Snider to win state this year so that they get bumped up to 6A, that'll really give people something to bitch about regarding 5A North. Snider gets to resume competition against the likes of Carmel, Fishers, HSE, and Penn............if of course they survive Carroll and Homestead (wow, it's a new era for sure). East Central bumps up, Cathedral bumps down, creating a force in 5A South. Is 5A still weak at that point? Or does one team make a difference? I think I'll just go back to "who cares." 

I’m putting together a list of classifications for the scenario of a 32 team 1A and a 32 team 6A. I might just create a new topic thread since it’s not really relevant to the subject of this one. Stay tuned. 

[Boilernation]

4 hours ago, Lysander said:

So we’re comparing “averages” to determine the strength of a class?  Not actual championships?  Really?  

So actual championships, as in 4A teams winning 7 out of 10 of the 5A Championships don’t really matter (and 1 of those 3 that wasn’t won by a 4A school was likely won by a Westfield team that was a 6A school by that time)? In 10 years it’s likely only 2 championships in 5A were actually won by a 5A team.

I, honestly, can’t see anything more definitive as to how 5A measures up.  They were given a “sawed-off” class after complaining about the mega-schools and STILL couldn’t win it 80% of the time.  Seems definitive to me.

If it’s all about the pulling out your “average” when determining who’s best then why bother? It’s like using Indianapolis Tech if you want to have a conversation about 6A football.  Sorry, I’m going to talk about CG, BD, Brownsburg, etc.

Maybe, just maybe, THAT mindset is the problem in 5A…to barely be above the  “average”.

——————————————————————————————————————

As regards East Central, I read somewhere that they were considered the top team in the Cincinnati area at this point.  As to whether that was some poll or actually looking at CalPreps, etc. I don’t know.  With that, they didn’t just beat Moeller this year, they handled them pretty convincingly.  Center Grove barely won on OT.  Btw, this East Central team is pretty much the same as last years.  Most all their “players” are back.

As big a chip on the shoulder as some parts of the state seem to demonstrate by  whining about not getting respected, frankly, lightly populated, hillbilly Southeast Indiana gets crapped on by EVERYBODY….especially teams like East Central and Lawrenceburg.

How many of those 7 were won by Cathedral and New Pal? To refer to Cathedral as a 4A program is about as big of a joke as Chatard playing 3A ball. When New Pal was cranking out 5A titles they were among the best in the state and tangling with the likes of Center Grove. Using analytics to gauge depth of a class provides better perspective than cherry picking to prove a subjective point with programs who were good enough to be competing at the 6A level.
 

[tango]

3 hours ago, tango said:

I don't see any 6A ball, but EC last year was probably the best HS football team I've seen in person.

Wasn't suggesting they could. Although they did handle Moeller easier (at least based on score) than CG...

2 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Having seen (as I tend do each season) a cross section of ALL classes within IHSAA FB.  Trust me, EC may be the best in 4A (perhaps 5A also)....  But they ain't winning in 6A, no way, no how!  

6A is a totally different animal than which you have made yourself privy to.  

Wasn't suggesting they could. Although they did handle Moeller easier (at least based on score) than CG...

[Boilernation]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Not sure why you're so angry over this. I think a good healthy debate is okay. At the end of the day both sides make a good argument. Who cares. One thing we can all agree on, and I implore that the IHSAA takes it into consideration, is to make 1A the other 32 team class. But would that water down 4A? Are the teams that are dominating 4A the larger enrollment schools? Without doing any research, I'd love to see New Pal, Roncalli, Reitz, and East Central competing with Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, and Whiteland. What I'd love more is for Snider to win state this year so that they get bumped up to 6A, that'll really give people something to bitch about regarding 5A North. Snider gets to resume competition against the likes of Carmel, Fishers, HSE, and Penn............if of course they survive Carroll and Homestead (wow, it's a new era for sure). East Central bumps up, Cathedral bumps down, creating a force in 5A South. Is 5A still weak at that point? Or does one team make a difference? I think I'll just go back to "who cares." 

Stick with who cares. I rather combine 5A and 6A, create a 5A and 5AA and make the split at the end of the year based on analytic measures. It won’t be perfect, but it’s better than what we currently have. 

[Lysander]

4 hours ago, BTF said:

Not sure why you're so angry over this. I think a good healthy debate is okay. At the end of the day both sides make a good argument. Who cares. One thing we can all agree on, and I implore that the IHSAA takes it into consideration, is to make 1A the other 32 team class. But would that water down 4A? Are the teams that are dominating 4A the larger enrollment schools? Without doing any research, I'd love to see New Pal, Roncalli, Reitz, and East Central competing with Snider, Valpo, Merrillville, and Whiteland. What I'd love more is for Snider to win state this year so that they get bumped up to 6A, that'll really give people something to bitch about regarding 5A North. Snider gets to resume competition against the likes of Carmel, Fishers, HSE, and Penn............if of course they survive Carroll and Homestead (wow, it's a new era for sure). East Central bumps up, Cathedral bumps down, creating a force in 5A South. Is 5A still weak at that point? Or does one team make a difference? I think I'll just go back to "who cares." 

It’s all good.  

I’m not angry but, admittedly, sincerely baffled as to just how folks can seemingly seriously still, however lamely, defend 5A.  It’s seems sophistry at best and delusion, at worst….or maybe vice versa.

To a degree, it feels like I’m arguing with Bill Clinton over “just what “is” is”.  

“Is”, in its most elemental form, is not being able to defend your class against the interlopers from the class below you roughly 70-80% of the time….yet somehow insisting on your own superiority.  I recognize that we live in a post-truth world these days but I thought football was still based in reality which, generally, is all about wins and losses.  

That said, someone (or, perhaps, multiple folks) here has (have) said that no one declared 5A “weak” while Cathedral was in it.  

Well, I certainly did 11 years ago.

Admittedly, I’m far from the biggest Cathedral fanboy (let’s just let it go at that) but I made it pretty clear back in the day that once Cathedral had cleared the usual bloodbath in 4A that they had easy pickings in 5A.…which turned out to be the case.  I think most any honest Cathedral fan would even admit it.  I mean, seriously, beating 8-6 Laporte in 2014 (who was 3-5 during the regular season….and they ain’t exactly playing the MIC during the regular season)…..that’s actually considered a 5A State Championship game?!?  I didn’t even know Laporte still played 11 man football….even at the time.

Regardless, 5A, such as it is, remains the entirely threadbare barrier into 6A.

Btw, it still also amazes me that there seems to be amnesia here as to just how good Columbus East and New Pal were during that same period (or Reitz pre-“new” 5A).  Say what you want but if it wasn’t Cathedral then it would have just been Columbus East or New Pal cleaning up at the time…..BOTH Publics.  Anybody paying attention in the South knew these were incredible teams that just couldn’t quite clear Cathedral.   Btw, they did end up getting their share in 5A.

But to be clear, I’m generally just here to make snide observations and defend the American Way….and to recognize immutable facts.  

Edited October 12, 2023 by Lysander

[BTF]

2 hours ago, Lysander said:

It’s all good.  

I’m not angry but, admittedly, sincerely baffled as to just how folks can seemingly seriously still, however lamely, defend 5A.  It’s seems sophistry at best and delusion, at worst….or maybe vice versa.

To a degree, it feels like I’m arguing with Bill Clinton over “just what “is” is”.  

“Is”, in its most elemental form, is not being able to defend your class against the interlopers from the class below you roughly 70-80% of the time….yet somehow insisting on your own superiority.  I recognize that we live in a post-truth world these days but I thought football was still based in reality which, generally, is all about wins and losses.  

That said, someone (or, perhaps, multiple folks) here has (have) said that no one declared 5A “weak” while Cathedral was in it.  

Well, I certainly did 11 years ago.

Admittedly, I’m far from the biggest Cathedral fanboy (let’s just let it go at that) but I made it pretty clear back in the day that once Cathedral had cleared the usual bloodbath in 4A that they had easy pickings in 5A.…which turned out to be the case.  I think most any honest Cathedral fan would even admit it.  I mean, seriously, beating 8-6 Laporte in 2014 (who was 3-5 during the regular season….and they ain’t exactly playing the MIC during the regular season)…..that’s actually considered a 5A State Championship game?!?  I didn’t even know Laporte still played 11 man football….even at the time.

Regardless, 5A, such as it is, remains the entirely threadbare barrier into 6A.

Btw, it still also amazes me that there seems to be amnesia here as to just how good Columbus East and New Pal were during that same period (or Reitz pre-“new” 5A).  Say what you want but if it wasn’t Cathedral then it would have just been Columbus East or New Pal cleaning up at the time…..BOTH Publics.  Anybody paying attention in the South knew these were incredible teams that just couldn’t quite clear Cathedral.   Btw, they did end up getting their share in 5A.

But to be clear, I’m generally just here to make snide observations and defend the American Way….and to recognize immutable facts.  

Not sure if you answered my last question, time is a valuable commodity these days and I don't have time to scroll back. You can't beat 5A up based upon seven state champions in the last ten years being from 4A. Four of those were Cathedral, who you and everyone with somewhat of a decent high school football IQ, knows that the Irish are not a true 4A school. It's okay for them to beat up on 6A's best, but when they win 5A, it makes 5A weak? That doesn't make any sense to me. Same with New Pal, almost but not quite. They are a true 4A school. But they also beat up on 6A's best. Ask Center Grove. But when they win the 5A championship, that makes 5A weak? I'm just not understanding your logic. The only way to compare these two classes are by using averages from rankings that have flaws such as Sagarin and Cal Preps. Unfortunately, that's the only way to do it since most of these teams will never go at it head to head. I think we all know there's flaws in a system that has Snider ranked 21st in the state and Carroll 24th. 

Liked.........."But to be clear, I’m generally just here to make snide observations and defend the American Way….and to recognize immutable facts."

[Ballhawk]

11 hours ago, PDB26 said:

I always thought it made more sense to split 1A into two 32 team classes instead of 5A. As wide as the enrollment ranged in the old 5A, each additional body is more meaningful for those small teams. Of course, I can understand why folks would want a 32 team 6A, but there's no way enrollment is more impactful in the large classes than it is in 1A.

I would agree.  I have never understood the argument that there is such a significant difference between a school with 2,500 enrollment and a school with 5,000 enrollment.  If you can't find 50-100 good football players in either school, that's your problem.

In 1A 20 additional/less students can make a big difference.  

I still believe that 6A and 1A should be the classes with 32 teams.

[Just a dad]

11 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

I’m putting together a list of classifications for the scenario of a 32 team 1A and a 32 team 6A. I might just create a new topic thread since it’s not really relevant to the subject of this one. Stay tuned. 

Sounds like a fun chat. Maybe incorporate the preference by some to move the successful privates (and dominant publics) based on Calpreps Dynasty rating. I realize that is a bit much but not sure how much of a geek you are for this. Looking forward to seeing the thread. I’d be glad to help if you need it. 

[FastpacedO]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:44 AM, psaboy said:

Pretty easy for East Central to look good with the 152nd ranked schedule. They have a 1-0 record against top 64, congrats to them. 

Like F.W. Snider not much East Central can do they have to play their conference (which is very week). Sagarin does not take Out of State Opponents into their equation, so basically the computation in sagarin only has them for 7 opponents (because out of 9 games they will have only played 7 Indiana opponents). Their non-conference schedule though consists of 6-2 Harrison (OH) (a Ohio D-II team that is their rival as the two towns are pretty much next to each other, Cincinnati Moeller (OH), and Roncalli (who is not as strong as they have been the last 2 years). Make no mistake however even though East Central's conference is weak they are not. East Central is very good and will likely be the favorite for 4A but also could be playing for State Championship in 5A.

Sagarin is about as good as it is going to get (still doesn't account for OOS opponents) Calpreps however does account for OOS Opponents. Notice where East Central sits out of all teams in Indiana.

 http://calpreps.com/2023/ratings/Indiana_all.htm

Edited October 12, 2023 by FastpacedO

[scarab527]

One thing I'm gonna say is last year 5A had by-far the most interesting tournament (in my opinion) and this year its stacking up to be the same way. Whether the class is weak or not there's a whole lot of parity in it and I think that's nice from a fan's perspective (and maybe was one of the goals of the 6 class split/success factor?). This year there's 3 classes (1A, 3A, 4A) where we truthfully could just save a lot of time and give the trophy to the best team right now and not even need to play the tournament, that's how lopsided they are. So while I might think that the teams that currently make up 5A are mediocre in relation to their size, I have to say that 5A is arguably the 'healthiest' class (if you consider healthy to be the fact that seemingly anyone in the top 10 of it could win). 

 

[FastpacedO]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:46 AM, Boilernation said:

No offense taken. It's all subjective opinions anayways that can't be solved by Sagarin ratings. For example, LaPorte at 173 beat New Prairie at 65.

 

I only used sagarin as a base point. Although sagarin is at about the best it can be I prefer to look at Calpreps because of the total ignore of Out of State opponents by sagarin (which is why Center Grove and Ben Davis' strength of schedule is that much lower than Brownsburg and HSE's). There are strong teams in 5A but there is very little gap between the Top 3 in 5A compared to the Top 3 in 4A.

I personally think had the classes been split to have 32 in 6A and 32 in 1A with 64 in 2A-5A it would have been MUCH MUCH better, but that is just me. 5A tends to be very watered down in its current state (doesn't mean the top teams aren't good).