Sectional Draw 2023

[Ballhawk]

16 hours ago, Muda69 said:

Perhaps Carroll should consider leaving the Hoosier Heartland Conference for just the Hoosier Conference..............

 

They do not have the talent to consistently compete year after year in the Hoosier.  They are cyclical like most rural 1A schools.

When Sheridan had the talent, they were the football kings of the conference, but every other sport suffered.  Carroll could compete some years in the HC, but not every year.  

[BTF]

11 hours ago, Rodney said:

imagine for a minute Valpo in 4a South last year

woulda been out in sectionals.

Not sure why you think that. With all due respect to the South, I felt all year long that 4 of the best 5 teams in 5A last year were from the North. My Top 5 were Snider, Valpo, Whiteland, North Side, and Merrillville........no particular order. There's no denying that Valpo peaked at the right time. Sure, they needed some lucky bounces in all of their last three games (only a good team could do that three times in a row), but to say they wouldn't have made it out of sectionals in the South? C'mon Rodney. 

Regarding this year. We'll never know the answer to the Snider/EC question. If asked right now, I'd say it could go either way. East Central took out Moeller. Snider took out Carroll, soundly defeated Warren Central, and thoroughly finished off 4A's number four team (Sagarin). No matter how anyone slices it, it would be a good game, like it or not. But again, we'll never find out. 

[Boilernation]

21 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

I only used sagarin as a base point. Although sagarin is at about the best it can be I prefer to look at Calpreps because of the total ignore of Out of State opponents by sagarin (which is why Center Grove and Ben Davis' strength of schedule is that much lower than Brownsburg and HSE's). There are strong teams in 5A but there is very little gap between the Top 3 in 5A compared to the Top 3 in 4A.

I personally think had the classes been split to have 32 in 6A and 32 in 1A with 64 in 2A-5A it would have been MUCH MUCH better, but that is just me. 5A tends to be very watered down in its current state (doesn't mean the top teams aren't good).

 

I completely agree 5A watered down. Just don't think it's as bad as some say. And if the problem is that a select group of teams in or formerly in 4A (Cathedral, Roncalli, East Central) along with generational great teams (Columbus East, New Pal) can win at 5A then maybe they shouldn't have been in 4A in the first place and voluntarily stepped up a class. Looking at this year, I'll be curious to see if East Central's playoff SOS would have been stronger at the 5A level. 

Looking at enrollments, you are spot on. 2A-5A would be MUCH better if it was 1A that was split into 32 teams. That would have put the following teams into 5A:

• Kokomo
• Northridge
• Evansville Reitz
• East Central
• Hobart
• New Pal
• Roncalli 

[Boilernation]

20 hours ago, Ballhawk said:

I'm going to have to disagree to some extent on 1A & 3A.

In 1A I believe Carroll (Flora) and Adams Central are legit contenders to Lutheran.  Lutheran is a safe bet, but all it takes is one game on one day, and it is possible for someone to knock them off.

I also feel that Chatard may have difficulty just winning their 3A sectional, and possibly their first game of the sectional.  There are 4 undefeated teams in 3A Sectional 28, and 6-2 Guerin took Chatard to the wire, losing in OT.  It may be a breeze for the Sectional 28 winner after surviving that killer sectional, but I don't think it's time to just hand over the trophy.

 

My wife is a Hamilton Heights grad. I'm involved in the area a bit. They have a solid coach there in the younger Kirschner who is active in the community and putting the program in the right direction. There is ZERO chance they beat Chatard. 

 

[Boilernation]

11 hours ago, Rodney said:

imagine for a minute Valpo in 4a South last year

woulda been out in sectionals.

 

 

Prove it. The Vikings weren't flashy. But not many 4A teams had a defensive front seven that could have handled Valpo's big OL and 6' 230 RB (Davis) running power off tackle all night.  
 

[Trojanmp52]

Ok I have a question I thought ishaa went to 6 class because we reached the magic number of 321 schools playing football, and that was the only reason?

In my opinion witch I know is worth about as much as sand in a desert, if the numbers have gone back down to below that number let’s go back to 5 class.

[Boilernation]

10 hours ago, tango said:

The last time Chatard beat Cathedral they got smoked in 3A South Semi-State, so I wouldn't bet the mortgage on that fact alone...

Who in 3A has a QB that can get a scholarship to Cincinnati and a WR that can play at Southern Illinois? That Memorial offense was on a different level than any 3A offense this year. Chatard rolls through 3A once again and pads the trophy case.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Boilernation

[Just a dad]

@ballhawk

Just a quick comparison of the teams in Sectional 28 based on highest ranked opponent (according to Calpreps) that they have beaten:

Guerin: #1843 Brebeuf 34-29

Peru: #4495 Rochester 34-23

Tippecanoe: #2282 West Lafayette 35-13

Hamilton Heights: #3740 Lafayette Central Catholic 15-0

Oak Hill: #6594 Eastern 34-19

Maconaquah: #7806 Cass 43-26

Northwestern: #9535 Tipton 43-27

Great records are sometimes built on a foundation of sticks. I think the strength of this Sectional is misleading. Peru could beat Guerin. Northwestern could pull the upset over Maconaquah. Oak Hill might have a chance against Hamilton Heights (not very likely) but I think you could drop in any other 3A team in the Top 10 (excluding Knox. They would fit right in) and they still walk away with this Sectional.

[scarab527]

If anyone wants to bet, you can have the field in 3A and I’ll take Chatard, since apparently so many are convinced they’re not a sure thing. 

[scarab527]

12 hours ago, Rodney said:

imagine for a minute Valpo in 4a South last year

woulda been out in sectionals.

 

why talk about an 8 year old game when we can talk about Snider literally handing a state championship away last year

Valpo would’ve won the Evansville sectional but other than that no lies told. 

[Rodney]

38 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Valpo would’ve won the Evansville sectional but other than that no lies told. 

I think memorial has a 50% chance of beating valpo

 

 

5 hours ago, psaboy said:

Ouch, that hurt. I would think that is kind of like M-Ville inability to win a semi state title with all that D1 talent they have year in and year out for 30+ years??

So were all on the same page here

You know I'm not from merrillville right...

I just wanted to write that we have 100 d 1 athletes all summer

Hell my "team" has changed like five times in two years

[Boilernation]

59 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

Valpo would’ve won the Evansville sectional but other than that no lies told. 

I disagree. Their run game by the time the Tourney rolled around was no joke. Not alot of 4A defensive front 7's could have handled it for 4 quarters. 

[Rodney]

2 hours ago, Boilernation said:

I completely agree 5A watered down. Just don't think it's as bad as some say. And if the problem is that a select group of teams in or formerly in 4A (Cathedral, Roncalli, East Central) along with generational great teams (Columbus East, New Pal) can win at 5A then maybe they shouldn't have been in 4A in the first place and voluntarily stepped up a class. Looking at this year, I'll be curious to see if East Central's playoff SOS would have been stronger at the 5A level. 

Looking at enrollments, you are spot on. 2A-5A would be MUCH better if it was 1A that was split into 32 teams. That would have put the following teams into 5A:

• Kokomo
• Northridge
• Evansville Reitz
• East Central
• Hobart
• New Pal
• Roncalli 

Would at least make 5a interesting every year, though I'd imagine the current 5a schools wouldn't be happy about it.

 

It would also kill 4a the way 5a currently is. And 4a would just become the chatard memorial show. Taking turns winning while the other was holding down 3a

 

2 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Prove it. The Vikings weren't flashy. But not many 4A teams had a defensive front seven that could have handled Valpo's big OL and 6' 230 RB (Davis) running power off tackle all night.  
 

Dont make me laugh

[scarab527]

14 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

I disagree. Their run game by the time the Tourney rolled around was no joke. Not alot of 4A defensive front 7's could have handled it for 4 quarters. 

They were legit, no doubt. But EC, Roncalli, and New Pal could’ve handled them. 

[Boilernation]

13 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Would at least make 5a interesting every year, though I'd imagine the current 5a schools wouldn't be happy about it.

 

It would also kill 4a the way 5a currently is. And 4a would just become the chatard memorial show. Taking turns winning while the other was holding down 3a

 

Dont make me laugh

Your Parkhurst part deux shtick isn't very funny. So, I'm not sure how to make you laugh. 

[Boilernation]

14 minutes ago, scarab527 said:

They were legit, no doubt. But EC, Roncalli, and New Pal could’ve handled them. 

EC probably beats them. The 2022 and 2023 version of EC should be competing in 6A. I think Valpo could have taken New Pal or Roncalli. 

[JustRules]

4 hours ago, Trojanmp52 said:

Ok I have a question I thought ishaa went to 6 class because we reached the magic number of 321 schools playing football, and that was the only reason?

In my opinion witch I know is worth about as much as sand in a desert, if the numbers have gone back down to below that number let’s go back to 5 class.

It wasn't the main reason. That was the huge disparity in enrollment from top to bottom. The fact the number of teams hit 320 was also fixed by doing it so the timing may have been related, but the primary reason was the size disparity in 6A.

I agree with everyone else that having 6A and 1A be the classes with 32 teams is a better idea. The disparity in 1A is less than 6A but the it's probably more impactful. It's very possible for a school with 1800 students to compete with a school that has 5000 students. Not easier but definitely possible. While the same 4 teams have won most of the 6A titles the last 20 years, there are still several other schools who compete well with them but haven't been able to get over the hump.

[tango]

5 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Who in 3A has a QB that can get a scholarship to Cincinnati and a WR that can play at Southern Illinois? That Memorial offense was on a different level than any 3A offense this year. Chatard rolls through 3A once again and pads the trophy case.

Chatard's QB that year was headed to Ball State, so they had a lot of talent too. Ironically, we won that game by 25 because of our D, not the O.  I don't know if anyone in 3A can knock them off, but just because they beat Cathedral doesn't mean they can't be beat by a 3A school. 

[Rodney]

3 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Your Parkhurst part deux shtick isn't very funny. So, I'm not sure how to make you laugh. 

Shtick..., what nonsense I have no shtick!

I'm very versatile

I love forming brilliant ideas to better high school football in Indiana, such as the post-game zebra press conference

I love making wild claims that can't technically be proven incorrect

I love fighting with BTF about how there is no real football north of Indy other than a few FT Wayne schools

I used  to love poking fun at 1a football, but apparently, I can't do that anymore (freakin communist is what it is)

Most importantly I love the images in my head of you angrily responding to things I write.

About the Parkhurst thing, I set my team to Merryville the day they lost last year in hopes of messing with him every time he posted anything

unfortunately, he disappeared so that didn't pan out

Am currently taking applications for my next "team"

send suggestions to my inbox ye

currently thinking about becoming a GS fan and posting a weekly thread about how Chatard should be in 4a so we can be relevant

 

If I had a "shtick" it would be pressing enter at random intervals in my paragraph

[Boilernation]

1 hour ago, tango said:

Chatard's QB that year was headed to Ball State, so they had a lot of talent too. Ironically, we won that game by 25 because of our D, not the O.  I don't know if anyone in 3A can knock them off, but just because they beat Cathedral doesn't mean they can't be beat by a 3A school. 

Understood. I feel like a hypocrite because I get chapped when people make a claim that team x will roll to a title.  I just don’t think anyone in 3A has the chops this year to take down Chatard and I’m predicting they roll through the Tourney if they get by Guerin.

 

 I hope I’m wrong and somebody upsets them. Personally, I’m surprised they’re satisfied with winning 3A Titles at this point.

[psaboy]

7 hours ago, Rodney said:

I think memorial has a 50% chance of beating valpo

 

 

So were all on the same page here

You know I'm not from merrillville right...

I just wanted to write that we have 100 d 1 athletes all summer

Hell my "team" has changed like five times in two years

Who is team of the week this week? I thought you have have been buddies with Cody, don't see him on here anymore

[Lysander]

9 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Understood. I feel like a hypocrite because I get chapped when people make a claim that team x will roll to a title.  I just don’t think anyone in 3A has the chops this year to take down Chatard and I’m predicting they roll through the Tourney if they get by Guerin.

 

 I hope I’m wrong and somebody upsets them. Personally, I’m surprised they’re satisfied with winning 3A Titles at this point.

Speaking for this fan (and I suspect many others), they’re (Chatard) not satisfied but, unfortunately, they will always play where the IHSAA assigns.  Catholics are big on rules…I’m not one, btw….but I’m big on rules too.

As regards that (and I’ve said this 1000 times….now 1001), the IHSAA is waaay to cute about always pairing Chatard and Roncalli in 4A Sectionals (as they would always pair Cathedral/Roncalli when they were in 4A).  Historically, Chatard and Roncalli are almost perfectly .500 against one another BUT splitting Sectional  victories sends Chatard back to 3A.  The fact is, even in a REALLY down year, Chatard is almost always going to be a Top 5-10 4A team….yet they are also generally going to split Sectional Championships generally with Roncalli (at best).  Which will always send them back to 3A.  

Thanks IHSAA.

To fix this I’d suggest two simple “fixes”.  One is a rules change as to the Success Factor and the other is a “pairing” problem.

1. Stop constantly pairing Chatard and Roncalli in Sectional.  I know it’s a vicarious groin thrill for most when Catholics knock each other out but, in the end, it really screws up 3A.  BTW, very few talk about Evansville Memorial (who has kicked @ss in 4A but is bumped 3A) but they, to a degree, are part of the 3A Catholic “problem” (you can thank me later @tango) …..I’m pretty certain Chatard has never beaten Memorial…at least in my lifetime.

2. Change the Success Factor point requirements for bumped teams to simply need 1 point to stay “up”.  That by itself might solve the “Chatard” problem (but it’s also a Memorial problem) in 3A….but I guarantee you’d solve it by not always pairing them with Roncalli in conjunction with changing it from 1 point to stay up a class.

———————————————————————————————————————

Back to 4A generally being superior to 5A 70% of the time.

Many here seem to be simpatico with the idea that East Central (with their stylish mullets and their handsome girlfriend-stealing southeast Indiana looks….much like a young Lysander back in the day with his Butch-wax crew cut) would have cruised through 5A last year and possibly, scared the Hell out of 6A this year.

I’m a little amazed that some here, though, up until East Central BARELY EDGED out Roncalli in Playoffs (after losing to them in the regular season)seem to forget that Roncalli had a MAC-sized line and arguably the best North/South RB in the State (the kid was robbed btw as regards State awards) and was assumed to have rolled through 4A and the late DT (I can only assume this to be the case given his absence) had Roncalli as a 6A challenger.  

The survivor of EC/Roncalli would have rolled through 5A.  I’m fully signed on with @Rodney about that.  Heck, DT, before his unfortunate apparent passing had one of them challenging for 6A (Roncalli).

Edited October 14, 2023 by Lysander

[Rodney]

5 hours ago, Lysander said:

2. Change the Success Factor point requirements for bumped teams to simply need 1 point to stay “up”.  That by itself might solve the “Chatard” problem (but it’s also a Memorial problem) in 3A….but I guarantee you’d solve it by not always pairing them with Roncalli in conjunction with changing it from 1 point to stay up a class.

They should remove the SF, that way some 5a schools can win state championships Sorry GS maybe next century

5 hours ago, Lysander said:

(the kid was robbed btw as regards State awards)

Agreed

 

[Just a dad]

@Lysander To solve the Sectional problem just get back to seeding the top 8 (or 10 or 12, whatever) and give them a first round bye. Blind draw the rest of the matchups. If a bumped up team is one of the best teams and gets seeded then they are nearly guaranteed to get to the “Regional” round. Assign 1 pt for a first round win (or bye), 2 for a second round win and so on. Change the success factor (for those bumped up) to 3 points over two years so they have to actually win at least one game and also say they can’t be moved down if they have been a seeded team for two years in a row.

The next argument will be “Why do so many of those damn cheating Catholics get bye’s (and a week to rest) in the first round every year while everyone else has to beat each other up for the right to play them?”.

We can solve that problem later.

[temptation]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, scarab527 said:

Would that be BD, Brownsburg, CG, and…?

Cathedral