End of Danville-Brebeuf game

[Lysander]

Personally, since I generally don’t have any particular love for either the Preppies or Danville (whatever their mascot might be….I, frankly, forget…”Six Gun Shooters”?) I’d personally be down with the IHSAA just cutting out that particular portion of the bracket and letting Roncalli take a week’s rest.
 

I’d consider it a perfect solution.  But then, that’s just me.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Lysander

[JustRules]

7 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

@WestfieldRocks 

Go back to the 2021 State Final vs. Center Grove.  #35 a Defensive player (for Westfield) in the 4th quarter loses his helmet.  Not as the result of a penalty.

He continues to participate in the play.  He is then is assessed a 15 penalty for illegal participation BECAUSE he continued to participate with improper equipment, and participated in the tackle.

Why would the play be whistled "dead"?

The play is ruled dead if the RUNNER still has possession of the ball when he loses his helmet. I just re-watched the play and he did not lose his helmet during the play. He took it off after the play was over thinking the game was over. That would not be a reason for a player to have to leave the game. If it's during the game it could be unsportsmanlike conduct for removing his helmet, but in those circumstances I would not flag him for it. Everyone thought the game was over at that point.

[FastpacedO]

6 hours ago, Lysander said:

Personally, since I generally don’t have any particular love for either the Preppies or Danville (whatever their mascot might be….I, frankly, forget…”Six Gun Shooters”?) I’d personally be down with the IHSAA just cutting out that particular portion of the bracket and letting Roncalli take a week’s rest.
 

I’d consider it a perfect solution.  But then, that’s just me.

Never forget! 😂🤣

Hope all is well @Lysander

 

[Donnie Baker]

D Tees said on his Facebook page that’s for sale that Danville is filing a protest 

[Bobref]

15 minutes ago, Donnie Baker said:

D Tees said on his Facebook page that’s for sale that Danville is filing a protest 

IHSAA bylaws provide that, in all contests, there can be no appeal of an official’s decision, which is binding and final. Rule 9-5, 9-24.

[miner_35]

17 hours ago, Bobref said:

Thank you for your very thoughtful explanation. There are a number of significant points you make, but I’ll only address one, or we’ll be here all day. Just my opinion:

Except for a handful of really elite crews, the ratings calculated to determine playoff advancement have only a very loose correlation with officiating proficiency.

Go ahead, change my mind.

Not going to try because we both agree on this part! As always, conversations with you are top notch!

[Titan32]

I guess I hadn't been paying attention...but Danville had a really nice season.  Hate to see it come to an end like this.

[Donnie Baker]

28 minutes ago, Bobref said:

IHSAA bylaws provide that, in all contests, there can be no appeal of an official’s decision, which is binding and final. Rule 9-5, 9-24.

State Law!

[RegionFBFan]

If the IHSAA allowed appeals, would Danville win the appeal?

Looking for the opinion of the former or current officials on this thread to answer. 

I’ve read this entire thread and all the various opinions on the play in question and I apologize but I’ve lost the plot if it was the correct call or not and Danville should have been the winner.

[Coach Nowlin]

1 hour ago, Donnie Baker said:

D Tees said on his Facebook page that’s for sale that Danville is filing a protest 

somebody is cashing in on "clicks". 

54 minutes ago, Bobref said:

IHSAA bylaws provide that, in all contests, there can be no appeal of an official’s decision, which is binding and final. Rule 9-5, 9-24.

Correct 

[Bobref]

14 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

If the IHSAA allowed appeals, would Danville win the appeal?

Looking for the opinion of the former or current officials on this thread to answer. 

I’ve read this entire thread and all the various opinions on the play in question and I apologize but I’ve lost the plot if it was the correct call or not and Danville should have been the winner.

Just my opinion, but I believe (after watching the video numerous times) the correct call would have been unsportsmanlike conduct on the Danville bench. That penalty would not actually have been enforced, since it is enforced after the result of the play stands, which would have ended the game. The key is that none of the people coming off the bench participated in the play. 

[Gipper]

With apologies to Friday night, Danville had a great season, and they should be proud of that.  It’s just unfortunate the officials made the call they did…

[RegionFBFan]

Thanks Bobref!

On a related but broader topic, what are the ramifications and accountabilities for high school officials as individuals and/or crews that have bad games/seasons? Is it only the lack of advancement in the tournament? Suspensions? Removal?
 

 

[FastpacedO]

2 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

D Tees said on his Facebook page that’s for sale that Danville is filing a protest 

@Donnie Baker when you going to challenge D Tees to a darts competition. Figured you might be up to challenging him since he is great at throwing darts to see what sticks.

 

[Bobref]

1 hour ago, RegionFBFan said:

Thanks Bobref!

On a related but broader topic, what are the ramifications and accountabilities for high school officials as individuals and/or crews that have bad games/seasons? Is it only the lack of advancement in the tournament? Suspensions? Removal?
 

 

 Given the numbers situation, it would take something really egregious — and I don’t mean “that’s the worst call I’ve ever seen” egregious — to take someone off the field. The far better response for an error in officiating judgment and/or rules application is education and training.

[miner_35]

4 hours ago, RegionFBFan said:

If the IHSAA allowed appeals, would Danville win the appeal?

Looking for the opinion of the former or current officials on this thread to answer. 

I’ve read this entire thread and all the various opinions on the play in question and I apologize but I’ve lost the plot if it was the correct call or not and Danville should have been the winner.

Had this exact game scenario in a regular season last year and we were fortunate to get it right. I would think it would get overturned since no one was participating. We will never know though.

[JustRules]

15 hours ago, RegionFBFan said:

If the IHSAA allowed appeals, would Danville win the appeal?

Looking for the opinion of the former or current officials on this thread to answer. 

I’ve read this entire thread and all the various opinions on the play in question and I apologize but I’ve lost the plot if it was the correct call or not and Danville should have been the winner.

If there were appeals, I doubt they would win if what the crew ultimately ruled was illegal participation. That's a judgement call. It's no different than appealing a holding call or a pass interference call. If an organization were to allow appeals, they create a bad precedent if they allow appeals of judgement calls.

If the crew ruled illegal substitution or unsportsmanlike conduct (two different options also possible in this type of situation), that would be a different situation. As Bob explained, both are non-player fouls and treated as dead ball fouls. Thus they would have not extended the OT period and the game would have been over. If they ruled either of these and then allowed one more down, that would be a mis-application of the rule.

I'm not sure what they ruled because I was told the signal the referee gave was illegal forward pass. I assume that was because the referee wasn't sure of the correct signal. It obviously wasn't an illegal forward pass.

One possible conversation they had was if the actions of the Danville team was illegal substitution (IS) or illegal participation (IP). Both would involve players coming on the field while the ball was still live. The difference is if the bench players influence or participated in the play while the ball was live. They obviously didn't participate in the play, but if they influenced the play, then IP would be a valid judgement. They would need to rule that in order for Brebeuf to get another play. They had to make that decision based on they observed or remembered from the play. The referee would have no idea since they Danville players were behind him. The line of scrimmage of officials probably wouldn't have a strong opinion since they would be focused on the action around the ball. The umpire and back judge may have got a glimpse of the players coming on, but I'm not sure if they would be able to tell how close they get to the action.

I hope that helps those understand what may have happened. Again, I have no idea what they actually ruled, and i have no idea what they discussed. It's definitely an unfortunate ending to an otherwise great game.

[Bobref]

18 hours ago, miner_35 said:

we were fortunate to get it right.

What was your ruling?

[miner_35]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

What was your ruling?

We gathered and talked about it after we had already through the flag. The field goal was blocked on the home sideline  where all of the action took place after the recovery. The visiting team made it out no further than the 9 yd marker on the opposite side of the field. We ruled that since the visiting team did not have an influence on the play, that we had an UNS on the visiting teams bench, and with no time left, the game was over due to it being enforced as a dead ball foul. We were still very unsure we had it right, but we remembered I believe what happened in the Ben Davis game a few years ago and followed what we had learned from that. In the end, after many conversations, including a couple of PM's with you :D, we realized we had done the right thing. The only thing I felt we did wrong was I threw the flag as the White hat, but I could only see the visiting team due to me staring right at the kicker. It was very obvious that the opposing team had came on the field and then retreated as well. 

 

Regardless, it is still a judgement call that we have the benefit at looking at replay for. We were not the ones on the field for this and did not have the pressure of a win or go home game. I can guarantee these officials have doubted what they called from the get go, even if they had it 100% right. I have not met one official, no matter how good or bad they are, that would purposely screw over a high school football team.

[Tin Cup]

Per the IndyStar, it looks like Danville filed a complaint with IHSAA.   

Danville files complaint to IHSAA for late call in football sectional loss

[FastpacedO]

38 minutes ago, Tin Cup said:

Per the IndyStar, it looks like Danville filed a complaint with IHSAA.   

Danville files complaint to IHSAA for late call in football sectional loss

I saw that. I don't agree with a couple of things what Coach Comer stated having now watched the video.

He stated they were through the handshake line (only he and a couple Danville coach came all the way to the Brebeuf sideline and extended to shake hands). The officials had not ended the game officially and were huddled (regardless what Danville did on their own accord). He also said  that the Brebeuf Coach persuaded the Officials to throw the flag. Both coaches were near each other close to where the officials remained huddled. They eventually moved away to keep both coaches from interfering with their huddle discussion.

[SPARKS]

Late to this party, but my question is.....

I have read that the regular R had to be replaced, and the whitehat for the game was new at Friday whitehat.   I know that for the other 4 positions, the crew gets a replacement from any official that is OK'd for playoffs.   I remember the IHSAA had a list of available, playoff-ready officials.  Bobref, JustRules...do you think that there should be a list of playoff-ready, experienced whitehats whose crew either did not get a 1st round, are privateers (picking up games week-to-week), or one of the R's of the crews getting 2nd weekend games that did not work the 1st weekend?  Is this one of the few times that Meridian St should get involved and assign an R to the game?

 

[Muda69]

54 minutes ago, Tin Cup said:

Per the IndyStar, it looks like Danville filed a complaint with IHSAA.   

Danville files complaint to IHSAA for late call in football sectional loss

FTA:

Quote

...

“There has to be some sort of resolution,” Comer said. “My kids and my parents, they don’t how to move forward. We had a game that we won. The bad part is that it was an awesome high school football game. There were amazing plays on both sides of the ball by Danville and Brebeuf. It just should have come down to the players on the field deciding it and not ripped away two minutes after it was over. Our community feels robbed of a win.”

...

Sounds like there needs to be some counseling going on in the Danville community.  "Can't move forward"?  Really?   It is just a game. Played by children.  Get over it, and yourselves.

 

 

[tango]

15 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

Sounds like there needs to be some counseling going on in the Danville community.  "Can't move forward"?  Really?   It is just a game. Played by children.  Get over it, and yourselves.

I agree Muda.  

[jets]

28 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

FTA:

Sounds like there needs to be some counseling going on in the Danville community.  "Can't move forward"?  Really?   It is just a game. Played by children.  Get over it, and yourselves.

 

 

In the grand scheme of life - of course. There was no fatality, someone has to win, and someone has to lose. That's how competition works.

However, pretty insensitive statement to make to imply it is "unimportant" or "doesn't matter." We have a whole site dedicated to HS football and I'm sure this moment "stings" pretty good for the Danville Football community. 

That aside - anyone catch the Danville coaches comments about we win/play with "Danville kids" ...i.e. a shot at the Parochial community. 

I particularly found that comical knowing what I do about Henderick's and surrounding counties and players