DL6 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 It’s always been interesting to me that private and parochial schools are grouped together as “PP” on this site when their enrollment process is tremendously different. Not sure what the difference is? Let’s start by looking at Indianapolis... There are four parochial (archdiocesan) schools in Indianapolis divided by north, south, east, and west deaneries with feeder grade schools. Those schools are Chatard (north), Roncalli (south), Scecina (east), and Ritter (west). The majority of students at these schools (and football players) attend their “feeder” deanery schools. As a southsider, I can only speak for Roncalli but 21 of their 22 starters are from south side Catholic grade schools. The one exception is a linebacker from Perry Meridian who followed Scott Marsh when he came to Roncalli from Perry. This is completely different than a private school, such as Lutheran, Cathedral, Park Tudor, or any other non-parochial private school in Indianapolis. These schools “attract” students from across Indianapolis and operate under different financial aid rules than parochial schools. For instance, Roncalli accepts vouchers OR financial aid qualifications, but not both. This means if a student qualifies for the voucher program and Roncalli’s financial aid program, they have to choose one or the other. This is not the case at private, non-parochial schools in Indianapolis, which is why kids are able to attend those schools for free. Not sure if this helps anyone understand the difference, but thought I would share as someone who has worked in private education who is confused by the “private/parochial” grouping, as those two distinctions operate completely differently. Parochial schools like Roncalli do not hold a “recruiting” advantage. Roncalli just won 4A state by 42 points but will have zero seniors playing division 1 football next year, while Hobart has two or three. This is not to say that parochial schools do not have an advantage socio-economically. But there are plenty of public schools that share that advantage as well (CG, Carmel, Zionsville, Fishers, etc.). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL6 Posted November 29, 2020 Author Share Posted November 29, 2020 (edited) I completely expect DT, Muda and the like to read this and change their viewpoints on parochial schools 🙂 Maybe parochial schools should only have a 1.2765389 multiplier applied? Edited November 29, 2020 by DL6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBH Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 (edited) the difference is the offensive lines...if you have a big kid and have 10-15k scratch to send your kid to those schools they have many 5' 8" scrappy white kids that will happily run behind them....public schools we look around hoping more big boys show up.....any yes the 6A schools have big boys but the coaching of technique is not the same Edited November 29, 2020 by BigBH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiting89 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Educate me further public-cannot deny enrollment you live a predefined area you have to be accepted private parochial-have to pass an entrance exam? tution cost? can control enrollment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL6 Posted November 29, 2020 Author Share Posted November 29, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Whiting89 said: Educate me further public-cannot deny enrollment you live a predefined area you have to be accepted private parochial-have to pass an entrance exam? tution cost? can control enrollment? Having taught/coached at a parochial school, I can’t recall the school ever turning away a student without serious reason (expulsion from another school). Enrollment control at a school like Roncalli does not happen. If it does, the head basketball coach is confused why the school decided to let enrollment bump the basketball team up to 4A after he was hired 🙂 There is a tuition rate for parishioners of churches in that school’s deanery, and a tuition rate for non-parishioners (i.e. non-Catholic private school kids) which is higher. To put it simply, it’s similar to publics... if you did not attend a deanery grade school (the gradeschools near the high school), you have to pay (pay more in this case). There is not an entrance exam at parochial schools. There is a “placement exam” that determines which classes a student enrolls in and provides a small academic scholarship to the top 10 students that take it. Edited November 29, 2020 by DL6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL6 Posted November 29, 2020 Author Share Posted November 29, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, BigBH said: the difference is the offensive lines...if you have a big kid and have 10-15k scratch to send your kid to those schools they have many 5' 8" scrappy white kids that will happily run behind them....public schools we look around hoping more big boys show up.....any yes the 6A schools have big boys but the coaching of technique is not the same Every student-athlete on Roncalli’s offensive line attended a South deanery grade school. This has been the case for at least the last five years if memory serves... Maybe those Catholic grade school lunch ladies are slipping something in the Fish Sandwich lunches during Lent? It’s possible. Edited November 29, 2020 by DL6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 19 minutes ago, DL6 said: Every student-athlete on Roncalli’s offensive line attended a South deanery grade school. This has been the case for at least the last five years if memory serves... Maybe those Catholic grade school lunch ladies are slipping something in the Fish Sandwich lunches during Lent? It’s possible. It's the extra piece of fffisch that you get at Lent. Let's be honest, I attended Catholic school when I was a kid and that "fish" was only fish in the pronunciation. I'm pretty sure it was like the "beff" and "loobster" at the Hungry Heifer ... Cher;s reference for the older crowd ... that had to be spelled differently on the menu to avoid a false advertising claim. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuccaguy Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, foxbat said: It's the extra piece of fffisch that you get at Lent. Let's be honest, I attended Catholic school when I was a kid and that "fish" was only fish in the pronunciation. I'm pretty sure it was like the "beff" and "loobster" at the Hungry Heifer ... Cher;s reference for the older crowd ... that had to be spelled differently on the menu to avoid a false advertising claim. 😀 Thankfully I went to Lutheran schools in Saint Louis. Oh wait....I forgot that we always needed to 'light a match' after lunch, many a time! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said: Thankfully I went to Lutheran schools in Saint Louis. Oh wait....I forgot that we always needed to 'light a match' after lunch, many a time! Always had that one kid that claimed that it wasn't him, it was the Holy Spirit moving in mysterious ways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBH Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, DL6 said: Every student-athlete on Roncalli’s offensive line attended a South deanery grade school. This has been the case for at least the last five years if memory serves... Maybe those Catholic grade school lunch ladies are slipping something in the Fish Sandwich lunches during Lent? It’s possible. sorry but those of use that live in the real world "South deanery grade school school" says you have an offensive line that will dominate public schools...those of us that live in an ever changing west side public school system it requires much more work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuccaguy Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 1 minute ago, foxbat said: Always had that one kid that claimed that it wasn't him, it was the Holy Spirit moving in mysterious ways? 🤣🤣💯 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptation Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Privates win 213-125. Kudos to WeBo for their win and South Adams/Zionsville on their moral victories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 9 hours ago, Whiting89 said: can control enrollment? This is the refrain of the anti-PPers that just drives me crazy. So blinded by hate/envy that it becomes a substitute for reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbat Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Bobref said: This is the refrain of the anti-PPers that just drives me crazy. So blinded by hate/envy that it becomes a substitute for reason. It's one of those "facts" that never materializes, but that everyone takes as a truth. But it also defies economics EVEN IF THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO SCAM THE SYSTEM. As an example, LCC has 287 kids in the high school. The highest enrollment in 1A is 380. That means that LCC would have "wiggle room" of some 93 kids or 32% of current enrollment and still remain in 1A. It costs a non-Catholic kid $10,813 a year to attend LCC. Multiply that by the differential and, if the idea that LCC is "controlling enrollment," then LCC is foolishly foregoing over $1,000,000 a year or $4,000,000 over four-year careers in tuition to "control enrollment?" In the case of someone like Roncalli, it's even a crazier proposition as Roncalli has a 271-student "cushion" to still stay in 4A. At their tuition rate, $12,920 for non-Catholics, Roncalli would be foregoing over $3,500,000 annually or $14,000,000 over a four-year career in tuition to "control enrollment." Over the last 10 years, it would mean that Roncalli could have still won their two state titles in 4A and garnered an additional $35,000,000 if they just weren't so intent on "controlling enrollment." And it doesn't even speak to the bigger "malfeasance" because, if Roncalli has $35,000,000 to just "give away" over 10 years, you think they'd do a better job "stealing" students to win more than two 4A titles with a $35,000,000 war chest if that was indeed the intent. Someone should record the Catholic schools appeals made in the Catholic churches just to understand exactly why the numbers are what they are ... and it has nothing to do with "controlling enrollment." There's a decent amount of begging from the pulpit AMONGST the choir to take away that controlling enrollment argument pretty quickly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Bobref said: This is the refrain of the anti-PPers that just drives me crazy. So blinded by hate/envy that it becomes a substitute for reason. Don't drop to the old hate/envy argument. There's rational thought to the animosity. Public schools have to accept pretty much everybody in their school district. In today's world it is difficult to find an acceptable way to word it but let's just compare the percentage of students participating in extracurriculars at private vs. public schools. Public schools have a much larger percentage of students who simply show up. They contribute nothing to the school system EXCEPT increasing the enrollment and (in the sports world) bumping the school up to a bigger division. Is that controlling enrollment? No. Is it a huge advantage for the privates? Absolutely. Does that mean I hate or envy the privates? Not even a little. My wife's family is a Ritter family. I have many friends from Roncalli and Cathedral. I've also been involved in highly competitive youth football for 20 years and crediting the success of the privates to the CYO league is avoiding the obvious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicvinegar Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 13 hours ago, DL6 said: It’s always been interesting to me that private and parochial schools are grouped together as “PP” on this site when their enrollment process is tremendously different. Not sure what the difference is? Let’s start by looking at Indianapolis... There are four parochial (archdiocesan) schools in Indianapolis divided by north, south, east, and west deaneries with feeder grade schools. Those schools are Chatard (north), Roncalli (south), Scecina (east), and Ritter (west). The majority of students at these schools (and football players) attend their “feeder” deanery schools. As a southsider, I can only speak for Roncalli but 21 of their 22 starters are from south side Catholic grade schools. The one exception is a linebacker from Perry Meridian who followed Scott Marsh when he came to Roncalli from Perry. This is completely different than a private school, such as Lutheran, Cathedral, Park Tudor, or any other non-parochial private school in Indianapolis. These schools “attract” students from across Indianapolis and operate under different financial aid rules than parochial schools. For instance, Roncalli accepts vouchers OR financial aid qualifications, but not both. This means if a student qualifies for the voucher program and Roncalli’s financial aid program, they have to choose one or the other. This is not the case at private, non-parochial schools in Indianapolis, which is why kids are able to attend those schools for free. Not sure if this helps anyone understand the difference, but thought I would share as someone who has worked in private education who is confused by the “private/parochial” grouping, as those two distinctions operate completely differently. Parochial schools like Roncalli do not hold a “recruiting” advantage. Roncalli just won 4A state by 42 points but will have zero seniors playing division 1 football next year, while Hobart has two or three. This is not to say that parochial schools do not have an advantage socio-economically. But there are plenty of public schools that share that advantage as well (CG, Carmel, Zionsville, Fishers, etc.). Thanks for clarifying! I truly didn't know the exact difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiting89 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Bobref said: This is the refrain of the anti-PPers that just drives me crazy. So blinded by hate/envy that it becomes a substitute for reason. It was a legitimate concern/question. I mean Andrean and bishop Noll only have one building and have to control enrollment. Where as I’ve seen Hammond and crown point build new schools and I think lake central just added on to their existing building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobref Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Whiting89 said: It was a legitimate concern/question. I mean Andrean and bishop Noll only have one building and have to control enrollment. Where as I’ve seen Hammond and crown point build new schools and I think lake central just added on to their existing building. It wasn’t. The clear implication is that PPs “control enrollment” to manipulate their class positions, not to fit inside their physical space, so as to garner easier championships. Anyone who gives it a moment’s unbiased thought would realize how silly that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jets Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 43 minutes ago, Grover said: Don't drop to the old hate/envy argument. There's rational thought to the animosity. Public schools have to accept pretty much everybody in their school district. In today's world it is difficult to find an acceptable way to word it but let's just compare the percentage of students participating in extracurriculars at private vs. public schools. Public schools have a much larger percentage of students who simply show up. They contribute nothing to the school system EXCEPT increasing the enrollment and (in the sports world) bumping the school up to a bigger division. Is that controlling enrollment? No. Is it a huge advantage for the privates? Absolutely. Does that mean I hate or envy the privates? Not even a little. My wife's family is a Ritter family. I have many friends from Roncalli and Cathedral. I've also been involved in highly competitive youth football for 20 years and crediting the success of the privates to the CYO league is avoiding the obvious. Very well stated. And the end of every season you’ll get the “good ol boy argument” of “Well ya they (PP) recruit” and “ya they get to decide how many people they have” ... Most educated individuals have moved past those points - but it still doesn’t mean PP’s don’t have obvious advantages that their public counterparts do not- as you stated above. And to ignore them, or not at least recognize them is simply ignorant. I’m much like you in regards I don’t really have much ill-will towards PP’s- but I’m not naive enough to ignore their obvious advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysander Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 13 hours ago, DL6 said: It’s always been interesting to me that private and parochial schools are grouped together as “PP” on this site when their enrollment process is tremendously different. Not sure what the difference is? Let’s start by looking at Indianapolis... There are four parochial (archdiocesan) schools in Indianapolis divided by north, south, east, and west deaneries with feeder grade schools. Those schools are Chatard (north), Roncalli (south), Scecina (east), and Ritter (west). The majority of students at these schools (and football players) attend their “feeder” deanery schools. As a southsider, I can only speak for Roncalli but 21 of their 22 starters are from south side Catholic grade schools. The one exception is a linebacker from Perry Meridian who followed Scott Marsh when he came to Roncalli from Perry. This is completely different than a private school, such as Lutheran, Cathedral, Park Tudor, or any other non-parochial private school in Indianapolis. These schools “attract” students from across Indianapolis and operate under different financial aid rules than parochial schools. For instance, Roncalli accepts vouchers OR financial aid qualifications, but not both. This means if a student qualifies for the voucher program and Roncalli’s financial aid program, they have to choose one or the other. This is not the case at private, non-parochial schools in Indianapolis, which is why kids are able to attend those schools for free. Not sure if this helps anyone understand the difference, but thought I would share as someone who has worked in private education who is confused by the “private/parochial” grouping, as those two distinctions operate completely differently. Parochial schools like Roncalli do not hold a “recruiting” advantage. Roncalli just won 4A state by 42 points but will have zero seniors playing division 1 football next year, while Hobart has two or three. This is not to say that parochial schools do not have an advantage socio-economically. But there are plenty of public schools that share that advantage as well (CG, Carmel, Zionsville, Fishers, etc.). Thanks for doing this. Even though folks here are generally better informed my guess is this is still news to many. I would add that what you say here is true for Indy but might not be entirely the same for the other Archdioceses around the state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedgebuster Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Grover said: Don't drop to the old hate/envy argument. There's rational thought to the animosity. Public schools have to accept pretty much everybody in their school district. In today's world it is difficult to find an acceptable way to word it but let's just compare the percentage of students participating in extracurriculars at private vs. public schools. Public schools have a much larger percentage of students who simply show up. They contribute nothing to the school system EXCEPT increasing the enrollment and (in the sports world) bumping the school up to a bigger division. Is that controlling enrollment? No. Is it a huge advantage for the privates? Absolutely. Does that mean I hate or envy the privates? Not even a little. My wife's family is a Ritter family. I have many friends from Roncalli and Cathedral. I've also been involved in highly competitive youth football for 20 years and crediting the success of the privates to the CYO league is avoiding the obvious. THIS! Grover hit it on the head. A private school that has 650 kids legitimately pulls athletes from that full number. Public of the same size often has 250 of those kids "eliminated" by socioeconomic reason, home life reason, general apathy, etc. Just an acknowledgement that we aren't comparing apples to apples here, and shouldn't be trying to would go a long way. How many "GREAT" Indiana football coaches made their names at private schools before moving on to a select public school job? How many times has it been done the other way around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysander Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 54 minutes ago, Grover said: Don't drop to the old hate/envy argument. There's rational thought to the animosity. Public schools have to accept pretty much everybody in their school district. In today's world it is difficult to find an acceptable way to word it but let's just compare the percentage of students participating in extracurriculars at private vs. public schools. Public schools have a much larger percentage of students who simply show up. They contribute nothing to the school system EXCEPT increasing the enrollment and (in the sports world) bumping the school up to a bigger division. Is that controlling enrollment? No. Is it a huge advantage for the privates? Absolutely. Does that mean I hate or envy the privates? Not even a little. My wife's family is a Ritter family. I have many friends from Roncalli and Cathedral. I've also been involved in highly competitive youth football for 20 years and crediting the success of the privates to the CYO league is avoiding the obvious. Well....yes and no as regards the “hate/envy” position. While I think we have a much more informed and thoughtful group overall here on the GID, I’m not sure that means everyone here is. As regards the general public, just take a 30 second peak at the Indiana HS Football Facebook page and it’s nothing but the “hate/envy” crowd screaming at the top of their lungs about “recruiting”, “intentionally limiting enrollments” and “separate tournaments”......and they are LOUD. In a world that seems governed by a few loud (often crazy) voices on Twitter, it’s more than unsettling for me when I hear and see a lot of the stuff outside of here as regards HS football. When those of us who have (had in my case) kids who attended parochials that is likely the 95% we hear from those detractors outside of here. I don’t think anyone here who is associated with P/Ps denies the advantages....but the general public tends to see it as “recruiting”, “limiting enrollments”, etc. which any reasonable person knows isn’t the case. So the question becomes how to address it appropriately and fairly...for everybody (including the P/Ps who don’t care much about football). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakone Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Defund the public schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzoron Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, Wedgebuster said: A private school that has 650 kids legitimately pulls athletes from that full number. Public of the same size often has 250 of those kids "eliminated" by socioeconomic reason, home life reason, general apathy, etc. Applying this logic to the classification of schools(percentage of students competing in athletics) P/P schools should be moved DOWN in classification, not UP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzoron Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 15 minutes ago, jakone said: Defund the public schools. That's what some here on the GID want, and have advocated it for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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