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Should Sectionals be Gerrymanderd?


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28 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Here's the topic Lysander proposed. Can the Success Factor be improved by Gerrymandering Sectionals? 

They should get rid of the success factor.  It's a big mess, and some of the P/P's are still able to win.  

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59 minutes ago, Tippy said:

They should get rid of the success factor.  It's a big mess, and some of the P/P's are still able to win.  

It is a mess, but the P/Ps are mostly winning in their original class, not once they bump up.

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As Lysander said... putting Chatard w Roncoli pretty much guarantees Chatard will bounce back down... same w Dwenger and Snider..... the idea is.. should the wolves be separated out amongst the sheep ... where they have no natural predator.... then let the SF do its thing till an equlibium is reached.... jus looking at it from wildlife mgmt perspective.... 😄   Think the SF is a failure ... at least w regards to 1A 2A 3A....after that... numbers start to kick in for the publics and ur just left w Cathedral to deal with....

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42 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

the idea is.. should the wolves be separated out amongst the sheep ... where they have no natural predator.... then let the SF do its thing till an equlibium is reached.... jus looking at it from wildlife mgmt perspective.... 😄   Think the SF is a failure ... at least w regards to 1A 2A 3A....after that... numbers start to kick in for the publics and ur just left w Cathedral to deal with....

So is LCC a wolf or a sheep?  Seem to be a wolf in 1A but more of a sheep in 2A.  Why is the SF a failure in your eyes?  How does gerrymandering address the issue(s)?

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15 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

So is LCC a wolf or a sheep?  Seem to be a wolf in 1A but more of a sheep in 2A.  Why is the SF a failure in your eyes?  How does gerrymandering address the issue(s)?

Ĺcc's current main competitor/predator w a pedigree is the Kings... then some others rising... not like they were thrown in w Andrean... like they did w Chatard and Dwenger...n b dropped back down to 1A.. Like Chatard like Dwenger... its jus Stupid.... Depends on what programs ur thrown in with.. Lcc will jus compete w whoever is in front of em...  and they did well enuff to stay up.... could they hav beat SA or Luth again... mayb... mayb not.... The IHSAA ain't gonna do anything anytime soon... it's how they roll..... but they could Gerrymander Sectionals for repeat offenders... that Some peeps want off their streets.... jus not in my back yard..... n on it gose....

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1 hour ago, MDAlum82 said:

So is LCC a wolf or a sheep?  Seem to be a wolf in 1A but more of a sheep in 2A.  Why is the SF a failure in your eyes?  How does gerrymandering address the issue(s)?

So let me ask u... is Chatrard a wolf or a sheep?  Seems to b a wolf in 3A but more of a sheep in 4A... 

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28 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Ĺcc's current main competitor/predator w a pedigree is the Kings... then some others rising... not like they were thrown in w Andrean... like they did w Chatard and Dwenger...n b dropped back down to 1A.. Like Chatard like Dwenger... its jus Stupid.... Depends on what programs ur thrown in with.. Lcc will jus compete w whoever is in front of em...  and they did well enuff to stay up.... could they hav beat SA or Luth again... mayb... mayb not.... The IHSAA ain't gonna do anything anytime soon... it's how they roll..... but they could Gerrymander Sectionals for repeat offenders... that Some peeps want off their streets.... jus not in my back yard..... n on it gose....

Uncertain what you are trying to say here:  " but they could Gerrymander Sectionals for repeat offenders... that Some peeps want off their streets.... jus not in my back yard..... n on it gose...." but your concern seems to be with teams that have easier/more difficult sectional paths..but I may be missing something ...

Sectionals have always been geography based to a large extent to reduce travel times & distances, largely as a safety and financial consideration for the schools involved.  These are HIGH SCHOOLs we are talking about with limited budgets, resources.  Success in sectionals has always been a case of who "ur thrown in with" (SIC). At some point - Regionals, SS, etc. you have to play the better teams.  Would you propose teams from North of Indy play in in a sectional in southern/northern Indiana, 3-4 hours away to appease some sense of "fairness"?   

 

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10 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

So let me ask u... is Chatrard a wolf or a sheep?  Seems to b a wolf in 3A but more of a sheep in 4A... 

Honestly, while I am a fan of high school football, I really only follow my high school, which is currently in 2A, and other teams from So. Indiana. I don't follow Chatard or other teams outside of my area not in 2A.  However, I think it is accurate to say that MOST, not all, but most teams that are bumped up, find little success at the higher level and fall back to their original class in short order.  One exception I am aware of is Evv Memorial, who moved from 2A - 3A - 4A over the past decade and have had a high level of success as each level.  Certain there are other examples from other parts of the state, I am simply not familiar with them.  I believe LCC has moved up to 2A and back to 1A at least once in recent memory, possibly twice(?)

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13 minutes ago, MDAlum82 said:

Uncertain what you are trying to say here:  " but they could Gerrymander Sectionals for repeat offenders... that Some peeps want off their streets.... jus not in my back yard..... n on it gose...." but your concern seems to be with teams that have easier/more difficult sectional paths..but I may be missing something ...

Sectionals have always been geography based to a large extent to reduce travel times & distances, largely as a safety and financial consideration for the schools involved.  These are HIGH SCHOOLs we are talking about with limited budgets, resources.  Success in sectionals has always been a case of who "ur thrown in with" (SIC). At some point - Regionals, SS, etc. you have to play the better teams.  Would you propose teams from North of Indy play in in a sectional in southern/northern Indiana, 3-4 hours away to appease some sense of "fairness"?   

 

They are already making those type of placements...  the SF is a failure for those sueing for relief...  jmho

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2 hours ago, BendNotBreak said:

When ther were 3 classes this prob didn't exist.... the public numbers buried the PPs ... but That wasn't good enuff..... Peeps want their cake and eat it too......

Let's go back to 3 classes.  That would be better than what we have now.  Some people are never going to be happy until the p/p's don't win anymore.

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2 hours ago, MDAlum82 said:

So is LCC a wolf or a sheep?  Seem to be a wolf in 1A but more of a sheep in 2A.  Why is the SF a failure in your eyes?  How does gerrymandering address the issue(s)?

Kind of depends on the year and class. 

The first year LCC was in 2A, they we about 30 seconds short of winning a sectional and likely going to LOS in 2A.  The second year, they were within a field goal of taking RCHS's place at LOS ... and RCHS took a 45-21 blue ring over Mater Dei that year.  The next year, 2015, LCC dropped down to 1A and picked up a blue ring going undefeated through 1A and the Hoosier Conference.  In 2016, they fell by a missed extra point to state-runner up Pioneer.  The next year, in 1A, they were handled by Pioneer 48-20 and didn't get out of 1A sectional.  The next season, 2018, they were completely mauled by Pioneer 70-7, at home, and again didn't make it out of the sectional.  2019 saw three losses to three 3A schools, but a thrilling 1A blue ring in a 29-28 come-from-behind-win against Lutheran.  2020 saw a complete drubbing at the hands of South Adams in 1A 42-9 who ended up getting a red ring at LOS that year after losing a 41-40 decision.  SF bumped LCC to 2A in 2021 where they secured a sectional before being bounced by old 1A foe Scecina 34-13 and ending with an 8-5 record.  This year, they picked up another 2A sectional before succumbing to Andrean 30-12 and ending the season at 9-4.  In the five seasons before LCC ended up in 2A for a second time, they faced three different 1A for their last game of the season.  In they won one of those file games and that was by one point.  They lost one by one point.  And lost the other three games, to a pair of public schools, by an average differential of over 40 points.

Again, kind of depends on the class and season.  In 2009 there was conjecture that LCC could have taken 3A.  In 2017 and 2018, they couldn't get out of sectionals in 1A.  In 2020 they kind of limped into semis and came out on crutches.  LCC will stay in 2A with its two sectionals and will play wherever the IHSAA sends them, but I think they are likely to probably end up seeing the bare minimum to stay in 2A for a few seasons to come with maybe a regional thrown in.  It will likely be a while before there's talk of LCC at the top of 2A like the potential that was there in 2013 and 2014.  Incidentally, Calpreps says this year LCC would be a 21-point underdog to AC, a 1-point underdog to North Decatur, a 1-point underdog to NJSP, and 25-point underdog to Lutheran.

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8 minutes ago, foxbat said:

Kind of depends on the year and class. 

The first year LCC was in 2A, they we about 30 seconds short of winning a sectional and likely going to LOS in 2A.  The second year, they were within a field goal of taking RCHS's place at LOS ... and RCHS took a 45-21 blue ring over Mater Dei that year.  The next year, 2015, LCC dropped down to 1A and picked up a blue ring going undefeated through 1A and the Hoosier Conference.  In 2016, they fell by a missed extra point to state-runner up Pioneer.  The next year, in 1A, they were handled by Pioneer 48-20 and didn't get out of 1A sectional.  The next season, 2018, they were completely mauled by Pioneer 70-7, at home, and again didn't make it out of the sectional.  2019 saw three losses to three 3A schools, but a thrilling 1A blue ring in a 29-28 come-from-behind-win against Lutheran.  2020 saw a complete drubbing at the hands of South Adams in 1A 42-9 who ended up getting a red ring at LOS that year after losing a 41-40 decision.  SF bumped LCC to 2A in 2021 where they secured a sectional before being bounced by old 1A foe Scecina 34-13 and ending with an 8-5 record.  This year, they picked up another 2A sectional before succumbing to Andrean 30-12 and ending the season at 9-4.  In the five seasons before LCC ended up in 2A for a second time, they faced three different 1A for their last game of the season.  In they won one of those file games and that was by one point.  They lost one by one point.  And lost the other three games, to a pair of public schools, by an average differential of over 40 points.

Again, kind of depends on the class and season.  In 2009 there was conjecture that LCC could have taken 3A.  In 2017 and 2018, they couldn't get out of sectionals in 1A.  In 2020 they kind of limped into semis and came out on crutches.  LCC will stay in 2A with its two sectionals and will play wherever the IHSAA sends them, but I think they are likely to probably end up seeing the bare minimum to stay in 2A for a few seasons to come with maybe a regional thrown in.  It will likely be a while before there's talk of LCC at the top of 2A like the potential that was there in 2013 and 2014.  Incidentally, Calpreps says this year LCC would be a 21-point underdog to AC, a 1-point underdog to North Decatur, a 1-point underdog to NJSP, and 25-point underdog to Lutheran.

Kinda skipped over the 4peat years...when a parochial winning 1A was the last straw.....  

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3 hours ago, BendNotBreak said:

When ther were 3 classes this prob didn't exist.... the public numbers buried the PPs ... but That wasn't good enuff..... Peeps want their cake and eat it too......

When there were 3 classes Lawrenceburg was 1A. So was HSE and Westfield. Carmel had 2,000 students. Times change. State Law 

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15 minutes ago, BendNotBreak said:

Kinda skipped over the 4peat years...when a parochial winning 1A was the last straw.....  

That was a given for LCC.  Those were the years when the program was strongest and it was somewhat tied to a perfect storm between classes, numbers, and coach.  Unfortunately when GID crashed, it took the older archive discussions away, but you can see in the years right before SF came onto the scene that @LCCAlumand I were talking specifically about LCC's 2A dominance predictions being quite premature and tied very heavily to classes and that those first two 2A seasons back in 2013/2014 might have likely been LCC's best chances to pick up big success in 2A as the classes were decreasing.  Mind you, it's not all doom and gloom and LCC's in a pretty competitive position, but those 4-peat years were something special and, while most folks tend to overlook it, it took LCC around a half century of so to get to that point, so it wasn't something inherent in the make-up.

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5 hours ago, BendNotBreak said:

So let me ask u... is Chatrard a wolf or a sheep?  Seems to b a wolf in 3A but more of a sheep in 4A... 

Hardly a sheep.  I’d suggest one look at CalPreps or Sagarin as regards Chatard’s ranking v. 4A the last 10 years or so.  

If Chatard simply splits v. Roncalli, they FAIL in the current system and bounce back down (For the record, just how Roncalli doesn’t win EVERYTHING the last 3 years straight in 4A and/or 5A with that MASSIVE O’line baffles me).  

Give Chatard or Cathedral (can’t believe I just said this) that Roncalli line and they tear it up…ANY class.

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1 hour ago, Impartial_Observer said:

Think about this, do away with the sectionals. Seed the top two in a region, blind draw the rest. 
Thoughts?

This harkens back to the old "pod" system in the 80's.  Unfortunately, under this system, there were many occasions "deserving" teams did not even get in the playoffs. 

Easy to see a team like FW Luers NOT make it due to their season record yet still be one of the better teams for their class/region.  Now, to deal with these situations, you have to create a review committee and a set of rules to govern these kinds of scenarios which makes it subject to human bias...which was the genesis for the "all teams get in" movement in the first place.  

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