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jakone

IHSAA slap down.

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Maybe he's mixed up on the message.  Maybe it's not meant as a punishment for winning.  Maybe it's meant as a challenge to enable programs that master one level to continue to grow and get better?  That's how I've always viewed it. 

I've always wondered how much satisfaction a perennial power feels for continuing to roll to titles at the same level year after year rather than challenge themselves to achieve something greater but not as assured.  If you're Chatard and you've won approximately half the 3A titles over the past 20 years, do you not look forward to try doing something bigger and better that hasn't been accomplished with your program before?  Or is it more fulfilling to continue beating programs that you've already demonstrated yourself to be superior to?  

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This “punishment” nonsense comes perilously close to the “cult of victimhood.” The idea is that in the tournament, like competes against like. Or at least, as close as you can come, given the wide disparities in ability in HS football. You can quarrel all you want with the way the goal was implemented. But that’s a different issue than whether the goal itself is a worthwhile one.

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4 hours ago, XStar said:

Maybe he's mixed up on the message.  Maybe it's not meant as a punishment for winning.  Maybe it's meant as a challenge to enable programs that master one level to continue to grow and get better?  That's how I've always viewed it. 

I've always wondered how much satisfaction a perennial power feels for continuing to roll to titles at the same level year after year rather than challenge themselves to achieve something greater but not as assured.  If you're Chatard and you've won approximately half the 3A titles over the past 20 years, do you not look forward to try doing something bigger and better that hasn't been accomplished with your program before?  Or is it more fulfilling to continue beating programs that you've already demonstrated yourself to be superior to?  

Even for the “perennial powers” playing up voluntarily wound be asinine.  It’s still a bit cyclical as even Cathedral went 6-6 last year.

Would be a tough sell to those who follow your program, your parents and your young kids to attempt to “forego” a deep run at a state title to “prove something” and probably exit early.

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10 hours ago, XStar said:

Maybe he's mixed up on the message.  Maybe it's not meant as a punishment for winning.  Maybe it's meant as a challenge to enable programs that master one level to continue to grow and get better?  That's how I've always viewed it. 

I've always wondered how much satisfaction a perennial power feels for continuing to roll to titles at the same level year after year rather than challenge themselves to achieve something greater but not as assured.  If you're Chatard and you've won approximately half the 3A titles over the past 20 years, do you not look forward to try doing something bigger and better that hasn't been accomplished with your program before?  Or is it more fulfilling to continue beating programs that you've already demonstrated yourself to be superior to?  

IMO, If this is really your stance then you have to apply it both ways.

In other words,  Why don’t you apply the same thought process to the school striving to win in their class level by beating the perennial powers?  To use your own words, challenge yourself to achieve something greater by beating the perennial power?  Look forward to beating these perennial powers as it will be so rewarding.   

Just saying   

 

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8 hours ago, Temptation said:

Even for the “perennial powers” playing up voluntarily wound be asinine.  It’s still a bit cyclical as even Cathedral went 6-6 last year.

Would be a tough sell to those who follow your program, your parents and your young kids to attempt to “forego” a deep run at a state title to “prove something” and probably exit early.

1.  Voluntarily playing up a class isn't unprecedented.

2.  Cathedral having a mediocre regular season record certainly doesn't make them incapable of postseason success.

3.  If a team moves up and can't handle it and it results in early exits, they move back down.  Problem solved.

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2 hours ago, OldschoolFB said:

IMO, If this is really your stance then you have to apply it both ways.

In other words,  Why don’t you apply the same thought process to the school striving to win in their class level by beating the perennial powers?  To use your own words, challenge yourself to achieve something greater by beating the perennial power?  Look forward to beating these perennial powers as it will be so rewarding.   

Just saying   

 

It has been applied exactly that way until recently and teams have always had to beat perennial powers to win their class.  Nothing wrong with that either.

Control what you can control and set out to conquer the challenge before you, whatever that may be.  The only difference now is that when a program conquers that challenge repeatedly, be it a perennial power or not, they get a bigger challenge.  As a competitor that just strikes me as the way it should be.  Clearly not everyone agrees.

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Snider wins two sectionals in a row at the 6a level. They advance by defeating schools of 2300 students compared to their 1800. Congrats to them, now they get Carmel............5000.

I see both sides of the coin. I'm a firm believer that if you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. So bring on Carmel and their entire student body of 5000, it doesn't bother me as much as some others. I mean, just two years ago Snider was one mistake away from blowing Carmel out of the water. Carmel is the type of competition I personally like to see even though we've failed several times in a row against them.  I'm also aware that I am of the minority in my thought process. That being said, is the new rule (the one just implemented a month ago), good for high school football? Originally, I thought it was, but now I'm starting to wonder.

Overall, I do like the idea of the success factor. But I think you should dominate your class for 5 years before you bump up, then bump down after 3 for lack of success. Going 5 years instead of 2 shows that your dominance is a result of having a powerful program and not a rare abundance of athletes in one particular class.

The two year cycle is, for the most part, a punishment to the upcoming classes. A five year cycle makes more sense. And if a school has 5 state championships in the cycle, so what, they deserved it. Now go up a class for 3 years and try to do the same. If not, go back down where you belong according to your student body numbers.

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16 hours ago, Temptation said:

Even for the “perennial powers” playing up voluntarily wound be asinine.  It’s still a bit cyclical as even Cathedral went 6-6 last year.

8 hours ago, XStar said:

2.  Cathedral having a mediocre regular season record certainly doesn't make them incapable of postseason success.

 

To piggy back off XSTar's response, @Temptation no one forced or asked Cathedral to craft and play their schedule they did last year. Cathedral (as an independent) can choose to play whoever they want, and it is typically a very impressive schedule. Just because they were 4-5 in the regular season has nothing to do with how they could/should/and do perform in the class 5A and 6A tournaments.

For example as a 4A "enrollment sized" school, they had a win/loss record of 9-4 over their past 4 postseasons (2 in 6A, 2 in 5A). IMO - if you're winning over 2/3rds of your post season match-ups... I would say you are doing just fine in that classification.

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Simply getting rid of the success factor gets back to an even greater flaw; classification based solely on enrollment, with no consideration given to the number of students in a given building who cannot participate due some physical and/or mental limitations. 

The use of the West Noble basketball team is simply a good example of why the original proposal submitted by the IFCA of using a four year count makes much more sense than two years. 

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A true system of promotion and relegation could work wonders and stop many enrollment-based arguments.

 

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9 hours ago, XStar said:

1.  Voluntarily playing up a class isn't unprecedented.

2.  Cathedral having a mediocre regular season record certainly doesn't make them incapable of postseason success.

3.  If a team moves up and can't handle it and it results in early exits, they move back down.  Problem solved.

Tell that to your outgoing seniors who poured their heart and soul into the season...

"Hey, see that team over there that we beat by 21 in the regular season?  We could have been in their sectional/regional but chose to play up a class and get beat."

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1 hour ago, Temptation said:

Tell that to your outgoing seniors who poured their heart and soul into the season...

"Hey, see that team over there that we beat by 21 in the regular season?  We could have been in their sectional/regional but chose to play up a class and get beat."

If winning is all it's about to you, then you will never be convinced it's a good thing.  

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Posted (edited)

These are HIGH SCHOOL kids.  Its not about me.  They'll take some 4A bling over a 5a sectional runner up any day of the week.

You can't be this out of touch with 15-18 year old kids can you?

Can you imagine a post game speech where a coach downplays winning in favor of honor?

"We can walk away with our heads held high because..."

Gimme a break.

Edited by Temptation
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2 hours ago, XStar said:

If winning is all it's about to you, then you will never be convinced it's a good thing.  

If it’s not about winning, the need for a success factor doesn’t exist.  

The name success factor alone is absurd. Having success is “unfair” according to the rule.   The solution has been to regulate a team’s success.   It should be called the success quota.  

The solution, IMO, is longer cycles.  If you dominate for 5 years, ok move up.  school should never have to move up 2 class levels.   If you don’t win State, that’s not dominant success so you don’t move up and in order to move down, it’s the same point system.  In other words, to stay at one level higher, you need X amount of points(same as what it took to move up).  

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6 hours ago, Muda69 said:

A true system of promotion and relegation could work wonders and stop many enrollment-based arguments.

 

Success Factor is a form of the Promotion system used by professional soccer leagues all over the world. Fans of clubs who earn promotion celebrate wildly at the prospect of playing 1 level up, even with little chance for much success at that higher level.

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8 hours ago, BTF said:

Snider wins two sectionals in a row at the 6a level. They advance by defeating schools of 2300 students compared to their 1800. Congrats to them, now they get Carmel............5000.

Snider & Carmel are not in the same Sectional -- they may face each other in the Regional. 

And in 2020, Carmel moves to the southern Semistate.

 

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13 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Success Factor is a form of the Promotion system used by professional soccer leagues all over the world. Fans of clubs who earn promotion celebrate wildly at the prospect of playing 1 level up, even with little chance for much success at that higher level.

Those are PROFESSIONAL athletes, not high school kids.

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29 minutes ago, slice60 said:

Success Factor is a form of the Promotion system used by professional soccer leagues all over the world. Fans of clubs who earn promotion celebrate wildly at the prospect of playing 1 level up, even with little chance for much success at that higher level.

A form of yes.  But as Irishman state enrollment is still the primary classification system.  And it should not be.

 

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8 hours ago, Muda69 said:

A true system of promotion and relegation could work wonders and stop many enrollment-based arguments.

 

A true system would involve choosing who plays on your team and how much they make.  That is precisely NOT the case here.   

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17 minutes ago, Robert said:

A true system would involve choosing who plays on your team and how much they make.  That is precisely NOT the case here.   

Well, based upon all of the basketball transfers this summer, we are moving towards this.

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11 hours ago, BTF said:

Snider wins two sectionals in a row at the 6a level. They advance by defeating schools of 2300 students compared to their 1800. Congrats to them, now they get Carmel............5000.

I see both sides of the coin. I'm a firm believer that if you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. So bring on Carmel and their entire student body of 5000, it doesn't bother me as much as some others. I mean, just two years ago Snider was one mistake away from blowing Carmel out of the water. Carmel is the type of competition I personally like to see even though we've failed several times in a row against them.  I'm also aware that I am of the minority in my thought process. That being said, is the new rule (the one just implemented a month ago), good for high school football? Originally, I thought it was, but now I'm starting to wonder.

Overall, I do like the idea of the success factor. But I think you should dominate your class for 5 years before you bump up, then bump down after 3 for lack of success. Going 5 years instead of 2 shows that your dominance is a result of having a powerful program and not a rare abundance of athletes in one particular class.

The two year cycle is, for the most part, a punishment to the upcoming classes. A five year cycle makes more sense. And if a school has 5 state championships in the cycle, so what, they deserved it. Now go up a class for 3 years and try to do the same. If not, go back down where you belong according to your student body numbers.

I too would rather have them play Carmel or other team that comes out of sectional 4 and have limited success. As long as they are competitive. They were in 2017 until they imploded/went into thug mode, 2018 they were not very competitive. But I'll take that over pasting Kokomo by 40 in regional year after year in 5A. Snider should want to play the best. I do like the 5 year, but maybe same thing could be done in 3 or 4 years, most "dominate" team cycles due to heavy class(es) is a 1 to 2 year stretch at the upper level it seems. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, psaboy said:

I too would rather have them play Carmel or other team that comes out of sectional 4 and have limited success. As long as they are competitive. They were in 2017 until they imploded/went into thug mode, 2018 they were not very competitive. But I'll take that over pasting Kokomo by 40 in regional year after year in 5A. Snider should want to play the best. I do like the 5 year, but maybe same thing could be done in 3 or 4 years, most "dominate" team cycles due to heavy class(es) is a 1 to 2 year stretch at the upper level it seems. 

YOU are NOT on the team.  This is starting to sound like a bunch of disconnected “good ole boys” who had some glory days and are delusional about today’s youth.

With the current format, a team like Snider would have to have a “once in a decade” type of outfit to beat a 6A power from the south.  The gap between the haves and the have nots is growing by the day.  Small 6A schools and 5A powers simply don’t have the numbers to compete consistently with the top tier of the MIC.

I know that may be a hard pill for many on here to swallow but it’s the truth.  The results speak for themselves.

Be careful what you wish for.

Edited by Temptation
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On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

YOU are NOT on the team.  

And what does that have to do with anything?

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

This is starting to sound like a bunch of disconnected “good ole boys” who had some glory days and are delusional about today’s youth.

You mean the guys who support the athletic program by attending the games with their friends on Friday nights? Those guys? It doesn't make a difference who is on the team and who isn't. The fans are difference makers. No fans, no athletic program. All opinions matter my friend.

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

With the current format, a team like Snider would have to have a “once in a decade” type of outfit to beat a 6A power from the south.  

To beat "a" 6a power from the south? Or did you mean the BEST 6a power from the south? Snider has won against Carmel, Warren Central, Ben Davis, Fishers, and Hamilton Southeastern.............and they will again. As their enrollment gets smaller and the Indy Mega's get larger, the wins may be fewer and far between, but there will be wins. But to have a team that is better than EVERY Indy mega power? Your right, it might be a once in a decade thing. It used to be 6 years. Best team in the state  in 1986 (turnovers), 1992 (champs), 1997 (mud), 2004 (injuries), and possibly (I say this cautiously) 2015. Let's just stop pretending that Snider's not a factor in 6a anymore.

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, Temptation said:

Be careful what you wish for.

As fans, we know the road to Lucas and actually win might be a once in a decade thing. Sure, a run to a 5a title is fun, but there is nothing like knocking heads against the likes of Carmel and Penn.  

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