6A Tournament Discussion

[CoachMack219]

17 hours ago, temptation said:

I wanna see folks’ potential point spreads on Crown Point versus the entirely of the HCC on neutral field.

Then do the same for the DAC and Westfield/Brownsburg.

Sounds like the most fun Homework assignment I've ever been given. I'll be back soon... 🤣

[Footballking16]

I still maintain that the better 6A Northern schools need to form some type of conference, even if it's for football only.

-Crown Point

-Penn

-Elkhart

-Snider

-Homestead

-Carroll

Could add 5A schools like Valpo, Merrillville, and/or Warsaw but this at least leaves you some flexibility schedule wise to maintain old rivalries or play Indy area schools and schools from MI/IL/OH.

[Boilernation]

54 minutes ago, temptation said:

People seem to get easily offended but the facts don't lie.  Outside of the moral victory claimed above by Penn, the numbers are what they are.

Not saying its impossible but giving folks a hard time because they have to see it to believe it is outrageous.

I'll be the first on here to congratulate Crown Point if they pull if off by the way.

C'mon, there's a difference between saying you need to see it to believe it (I'm in that boat as well) and straight out insinuating that 6A teams north of 64 shouldn't even believe it's possible. 

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I still maintain that the better 6A Northern schools need to form some type of conference, even if it's for football only.

-Crown Point

-Penn

-Elkhart

-Snider

-Homestead

-Carroll

Could add 5A schools like Valpo, Merrillville, and/or Warsaw but this at least leaves you some flexibility schedule wise to maintain old rivalries or play Indy area schools and schools from MI/IL/OH.

To expand on this, here are Sagarin ranks of each of these teams.

-Crown Point (3)

-Merrillville (10)

-Carroll (15)

-Snider (21)

-Warsaw (25)

-Penn (29)

-Elkhart (33)

-Homestead (50)

This hypothetical conference easily becomes one of the best conferences in the state only behind the HCC and MIC and you could make a case it's more competitive top to bottom than the MIC. 

[CoachMack219]

Since @temptation asked and I have nothing better to do this morning, here is my $0.02 on CP vs the HCC Spreads and Brownsburg/ Westfield vs the DAC. Don't ask my method or thought process, it's arguably more confusing than the 8-Class with an Open Division everyone in playoff format I suggested about a year ago. 🤣

CP vs the HCC

CP vs Brownsburg

CP vs Brownsburg

Brownsburg vs the DAC

 

Westfield vs the DAC

[adambetz]

15 hours ago, adambetz said:

Crown Point vs Lawrence North: LN opts out after home and home with Northside.

FW Northside vs New Haven: Luers opts for better comp and drops New Haven after two years. Marriage of convenience between Northside and New Haven. Northside could certainly court a better opponent.

FW Luers vs SB St Joe: St Joe and FW Southside done after 2 years.

FW Southside vs SB Washington: Panthers fill a hole in week 2 after playing a neutral site game against New Albany this past year.

Luers has Andrean week 2 for at least the next two years so that blows up this little hypothetical sadly.

[CoachMack219]

7 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said:

Since @temptation asked and I have nothing better to do this morning, here is my $0.02 on CP vs the HCC Spreads and Brownsburg/ Westfield vs the DAC. Don't ask my method or thought process, it's arguably more confusing than the 8-Class with an Open Division everyone in playoff format I suggested about a year ago. 🤣

CP vs the HCC

CP vs Brownsburg

CP vs Brownsburg

Brownsburg vs the DAC

 

Westfield vs the DAC

Since @temptation asked and I have nothing better to do this morning, here is my $0.02 on CP vs the HCC Spreads and Brownsburg/ Westfield vs the DAC. Don't ask my method or thought process, it's arguably more confusing than the 8-Class with an Open Division everyone in playoff format I suggested about a year ago. 🤣

CP vs the HCC

CP vs Brownsburg (Brownsburg -2.5)

CP vs Westfield (Westfield -1.5)

CP vs Fishers (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Hamilton SE (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Franklin Central (Crown Point -9)

CP vs Zionsville (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Avon (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Noblesville (Crown Point -12)

Brownsburg vs the DAC

Brownsburg vs CP (Brownsburg -2.5)

Brownsburg vs Merrillville (Brownsburg -13.5)

Brownsburg vs Valpo (Brownsburg -19.5)

Brownsburg vs Chesterton (Brownsburg -26.5)

Brownsburg vs Michigan City (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Portage (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Lake Central (Brownsburg -34)

Brownsburg vs LaPorte (Brownsburg -41)

Westfield vs the DAC

Westfield vs CP (Westfield -1.5)

Westfield vs Merrillville (Westfield -12.5)

Westfield vs Valpo (Westfield -18.5)

Westfield vs Chesterton (Westfield -25)

Westfield vs Michigan City (Westfield -28)

Westfield vs Portage (Westfield -29)

Westfield vs Lake Central (Westfield -33)

Westfield vs LaPorte (Westfield -40)

 

Apologies, I got cut off and couldn't edit or delete the original. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by CoachMack219

[Coach Nowlin]

16 hours ago, temptation said:

Not my job.  These schools figured it out, Crown Point can too if they wanna be taken seriously.

This is all moot if they win state or it’s competitive, but history suggests it won’t be.

So rail road the schedule and refuse to provide a solution, interesting.   

16 hours ago, Yuccaguy said:

Plead with LN to take away FW North and play them.  There are other options for the Legends to play honestly.  

Thank You for taking the leap of faith Temptation refused to do 

16 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Haha! I know that's an unpopular opinion. All of the population growth in south Lake County is in Crown Point and Hanover Central's district. RDP is falling behind if the past 2 seasons are any indication of the future. 

You live in Crown Point. Do you see any reason to believe the talent is going to dry up? 

 

No.    Kids/Families are not dumb.  They see the glitz, the glamour, the exposure, the operating budget, the facilities.    

They work hard, they earn many of the things they program provides, whether home grown or they show up after they have been in HS, the model is set up for sustain success.   

Why has CP Wrestling not taken any steps back?  

15 hours ago, adambetz said:

Crown Point vs Lawrence North: LN opts out after home and home with Northside.

FW Northside vs New Haven: Luers opts for better comp and drops New Haven after two years. Marriage of convenience between Northside and New Haven. Northside could certainly court a better opponent.

FW Luers vs SB St Joe: St Joe and FW Southside done after 2 years.

FW Southside vs SB Washington: Panthers fill a hole in week 2 after playing a neutral site game against New Albany this past year.

Thank You

43 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said:

Coach, I feel the rings represent the hard work that the players and coaches put into the season and earned by making it to Lucas Oil and being the North representative. I guess the T-shirts just don't get my competitive juices flowing. I appreciate the community support and partnership that Crown Point has and truly believe it is the recipe for sustained football success even if the rest of the Region (with the exception of a few) fail to understand and develop that.

To me personally, it's like watching Lebron James walk around in his 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2018 Eastern Conference Champions T-shirt or an NBA Finals Runner-Up T-shirt. Is getting there an accomplishment to be proud of? ABSOLUTELY! But for me, I think the Red Rings symbolize that better than a North Champ T-shirt (worn by a player, coach, or community member) ever could. 

$13 if that T shirt because why not.    In 2014, we had a community member want to spend money and bought our entire football program BEAT CC t shirts on our way to doing just that.   Should we have not accept it?   Should we have never wear them?   A  T shirt is not meant for competitive juices or is not meant to get anyone over the top, it's a symbol of success or attempted school spirit, nothing more nothing less.     In Mid 2000's North Judson made T shirts with our school colors when they beat us in 2004 sectional.    KV made T shirts when they won the Cracker Barrel  back in the day too.   

[temptation]

41 minutes ago, Boilernation said:

C'mon, there's a difference between saying you need to see it to believe it (I'm in that boat as well) and straight out insinuating that 6A teams north of 64 shouldn't even believe it's possible. 

I'm not defending the statement that it is impossible and have never taken that stance.

[CoachMack219]

15 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

$13 if that T shirt because why not.    In 2014, we had a community member want to spend money and bought our entire football program BEAT CC t shirts on our way to doing just that.   Should we have not accept it?   Should we have never wear them?   A  T shirt is not meant for competitive juices or is not meant to get anyone over the top, it's a symbol of success or attempted school spirit, nothing more nothing less.     In Mid 2000's North Judson made T shirts with our school colors when they beat us in 2004 sectional.    KV made T shirts when they won the Cracker Barrel  back in the day too.   

You absolutely should have accepted. You hadn't played the game yet and it was meant to encourage your players. Is the purpose of the North Champs T-shirts to encourage the players to win/ compete (like your beat CC shirts) or to celebrate 2nd place? Don't get me wrong, 2nd place in a state football tournament is a tremendous feat that not many accomplish but that doesn't mean I think the t-shirts are a cool idea. I'm not insinuating that T-shirts get anyone over the top. Myself, as a competitor, would struggle to wear a t-shirt that says I got 2nd place. Hell, I have a baseball related one I don't wear that says State Champs but the true best team wasn't at that tournament. Lol I understand school spirit and wish it wasn't lacking in SOOOOO many other places in the 219. I just think when you're trying to go to the places that Crown Point is trying to go promoting your 2nd place finish with a "North Champions" t-shirt FEELS like it goes against what they're working toward accomplishing (1st place). They can buy/ make all the t-shirts they want to make. I sleep fine every night, just offering my opinion on runner up apparel. 

[temptation]

59 minutes ago, Coach Nowlin said:

So rail road the schedule and refuse to provide a solution, interesting.   

Thank You for taking the leap of faith Temptation refused to do 

No.    Kids/Families are not dumb.  They see the glitz, the glamour, the exposure, the operating budget, the facilities.    

They work hard, they earn many of the things they program provides, whether home grown or they show up after they have been in HS, the model is set up for sustain success.   

Why has CP Wrestling not taken any steps back?  

Thank You

$13 if that T shirt because why not.    In 2014, we had a community member want to spend money and bought our entire football program BEAT CC t shirts on our way to doing just that.   Should we have not accept it?   Should we have never wear them?   A  T shirt is not meant for competitive juices or is not meant to get anyone over the top, it's a symbol of success or attempted school spirit, nothing more nothing less.     In Mid 2000's North Judson made T shirts with our school colors when they beat us in 2004 sectional.    KV made T shirts when they won the Cracker Barrel  back in the day too.   

I mean, if you can get a team from ARIZONA on the schedule, anything is possible right?  Center Grove and Carmel sure as hell figured it out pretty quickly.

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, CoachMack219 said:

Since @temptation asked and I have nothing better to do this morning, here is my $0.02 on CP vs the HCC Spreads and Brownsburg/ Westfield vs the DAC. Don't ask my method or thought process, it's arguably more confusing than the 8-Class with an Open Division everyone in playoff format I suggested about a year ago. 🤣

CP vs the HCC

CP vs Brownsburg (Brownsburg -2.5)

CP vs Westfield (Westfield -1.5)

CP vs Fishers (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Hamilton SE (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Franklin Central (Crown Point -9)

CP vs Zionsville (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Avon (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Noblesville (Crown Point -12)

Brownsburg vs the DAC

Brownsburg vs CP (Brownsburg -2.5)

Brownsburg vs Merrillville (Brownsburg -13.5)

Brownsburg vs Valpo (Brownsburg -19.5)

Brownsburg vs Chesterton (Brownsburg -26.5)

Brownsburg vs Michigan City (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Portage (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Lake Central (Brownsburg -34)

Brownsburg vs LaPorte (Brownsburg -41)

Westfield vs the DAC

Westfield vs CP (Westfield -1.5)

Westfield vs Merrillville (Westfield -12.5)

Westfield vs Valpo (Westfield -18.5)

Westfield vs Chesterton (Westfield -25)

Westfield vs Michigan City (Westfield -28)

Westfield vs Portage (Westfield -29)

Westfield vs Lake Central (Westfield -33)

Westfield vs LaPorte (Westfield -40)

 

Apologies, I got cut off and couldn't edit or delete the original. 

I can get on board with that. I definitely wouldn't be betting on the Crown Point vs Noblesville game. Before I state why it may be the fastest High School football game. Not that Noblesville was some world beaters or anything at 2-8, but that Power T offense they had really ate clock and limited possessions for their opponents. They just did a not great job of finishing late in games. This was evidenced by their game against Brownsburg: Noblesville time of possession 40:32 and Brownsburg time of possession 7:28 final score Browsnburg won 22-18. Noblesville would be a betting nightmare against the spread🤣

Edit: I should clarify, I still think Crown Point would win, I just wouldn't want to bet on any point spread.

Edited November 13, 2024 by FastpacedO

[Yuccaguy]

3 hours ago, Boilernation said:

Of course it’s obvious the success has always been in Indy at the 6A level. So you would tell him or any other 6A true Northern coach they’re just playing for a participation trophy? 

I am not here to get PERSONAL with anyone.  

Facts are facts.  A winless Noblesville team almost beat the SAC Champion Homestead a few years ago, and we were all predicting a Spartan wipeout.  

Unless and until a "true" Northern Indiana team can break out of a 'red ribbon'.  Then sadly we are playing for an appearance at 6A.  

I wise man once said:  In order to BE the "Man"....You need to BEAT "the Man".    I also add to that...PLAY "the Man" and see what you may/may not need to "beat the Man".  

[temptation]

1 hour ago, CoachMack219 said:

Since @temptation asked and I have nothing better to do this morning, here is my $0.02 on CP vs the HCC Spreads and Brownsburg/ Westfield vs the DAC. Don't ask my method or thought process, it's arguably more confusing than the 8-Class with an Open Division everyone in playoff format I suggested about a year ago. 🤣

CP vs the HCC

CP vs Brownsburg (Brownsburg -2.5)

CP vs Westfield (Westfield -1.5)

CP vs Fishers (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Hamilton SE (Crown Point -3)

CP vs Franklin Central (Crown Point -9)

CP vs Zionsville (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Avon (Crown Point -10)

CP vs Noblesville (Crown Point -12)

Brownsburg vs the DAC

Brownsburg vs CP (Brownsburg -2.5)

Brownsburg vs Merrillville (Brownsburg -13.5)

Brownsburg vs Valpo (Brownsburg -19.5)

Brownsburg vs Chesterton (Brownsburg -26.5)

Brownsburg vs Michigan City (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Portage (Brownsburg -29.5)

Brownsburg vs Lake Central (Brownsburg -34)

Brownsburg vs LaPorte (Brownsburg -41)

Westfield vs the DAC

Westfield vs CP (Westfield -1.5)

Westfield vs Merrillville (Westfield -12.5)

Westfield vs Valpo (Westfield -18.5)

Westfield vs Chesterton (Westfield -25)

Westfield vs Michigan City (Westfield -28)

Westfield vs Portage (Westfield -29)

Westfield vs Lake Central (Westfield -33)

Westfield vs LaPorte (Westfield -40)

 

Apologies, I got cut off and couldn't edit or delete the original. 

This is about where I am but would have Brownsburg/Westfield closer to -6.5.

Fishers/HSE = EVEN

[CoachMack219]

34 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I can get on board with that. I definitely wouldn't be betting on the Crown Point vs Noblesville game. Before I state why it may be the fastest High School football game. Not that Noblesville was some world beaters or anything at 2-8, but that Power T offense they had really ate clock and limited possessions for their opponents. They just did a not great job of finishing late in games. This was evidenced by their game against Brownsburg: Noblesville time of possession 40:32 and Brownsburg time of possession 7:28 final score Browsnburg won 22-18. Noblesville would be a betting nightmare against the spread🤣

Edit: I should clarify, I still think Crown Point would win, I just wouldn't want to bet on any point spread.

As I put this together, I was extremely aware of the Brownsburg and Noblesville result which was posted somewhere on this board. NO chance I would gamble on any of those games I listed if CP was in the HCC. So many tight spreads and based on the week in week out grind of the HCC, anyone appears able to win or lose on any given night. 

11 minutes ago, temptation said:

This is about where I am but would have Brownsburg/Westfield closer to -6.5.

Fishers/HSE = EVEN

That's fair. Would you revisit those spreads should CP beat Westfield or Fishers by 7-10 in a week and a half, should they get past Carroll? Or are we setting these in proverbial stone based on performances from week 1-today? 

[BTF]

4 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Not disagreeing with you but one question. Do you think Lawrence North vs Fort Wayne North in November would be the same score as it was in week 2 in August? 

It's hard to conclude, based on looking at their schedule, if North Side was much better in Week 10 than they were in Week 2. All I can tell you is that North isn't a bad football team. When I watched the game in Week 2, I came away with two thoughts. First, Lawrence North has some athletes and can score at will. Second, North Side was outmatched, but they didn't back down and punched LN back. North Side has that kind of team that's going to scrap with you whether your name is Concordia or Center Grove. But I honestly can't answer your question, other than that North would take the field with LN with the intention of winning the game. They have the mindset at least. 

[FastpacedO]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

It's hard to conclude, based on looking at their schedule, if North Side was much better in Week 10 than they were in Week 2. All I can tell you is that North isn't a bad football team. When I watched the game in Week 2, I came away with two thoughts. First, Lawrence North has some athletes and can score at will. Second, North Side was outmatched, but they didn't back down and punched LN back. North Side has that kind of team that's going to scrap with you whether your name is Concordia or Center Grove. But I honestly can't answer your question, other than that North would take the field with LN with the intention of winning the game. They have the mindset at least. 

Thank you and it was an honest question because you have seen more of FW North than I have.

 

[temptation]

34 minutes ago, CoachMack219 said:

As I put this together, I was extremely aware of the Brownsburg and Noblesville result which was posted somewhere on this board. NO chance I would gamble on any of those games I listed if CP was in the HCC. So many tight spreads and based on the week in week out grind of the HCC, anyone appears able to win or lose on any given night. 

That's fair. Would you revisit those spreads should CP beat Westfield or Fishers by 7-10 in a week and a half, should they get past Carroll? Or are we setting these in proverbial stone based on performances from week 1-today? 

Absolutely.  The semi-state game tells all.

[BTF]

4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Thank you and it was an honest question because you have seen more of FW North than I have.

 

 

4 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Thank you and it was an honest question because you have seen more of FW North than I have.

 

You're welcome. I'm all for a good conversation. Personally, I think transitive property is overrated. But it does come in handy sometimes when defending the integrity of football in the area you're from. At the end of the day, everyone knows that the MIC and HCC are the two best conferences by far. Everyone knows that Indy had dominated 6A and that Penn hasn't been the same since Geesman. Snider more than likely won't come through with their enrollment numbers. Right now, it's up to Crown Point. Carroll is good, but just a step behind Indy as we saw in Weeks 1 & 2.

My two most controversial points this season is that Crown Point will represent the north and play well at Lucas Oil and that New Pal will be exposed as a program that's NOT one of the best ten in the state. But I'll be the first to come on here and admit that I'm an idiot if I'm wrong. 

[temptation]

10 minutes ago, BTF said:

 

You're welcome. I'm all for a good conversation. Personally, I think transitive property is overrated. But it does come in handy sometimes when defending the integrity of football in the area you're from. At the end of the day, everyone knows that the MIC and HCC are the two best conferences by far. Everyone knows that Indy had dominated 6A and that Penn hasn't been the same since Geesman. Snider more than likely won't come through with their enrollment numbers. Right now, it's up to Crown Point. Carroll is good, but just a step behind Indy as we saw in Weeks 1 & 2.

My two most controversial points this season is that Crown Point will represent the north and play well at Lucas Oil and that New Pal will be exposed as a program that's NOT one of the best ten in the state. But I'll be the first to come on here and admit that I'm an idiot if I'm wrong. 

My most controversial point was that I had Ben Davis as my preseason #1...yuck, lol.

 

[FastpacedO]

6 minutes ago, BTF said:

My two most controversial points this season is that Crown Point will represent the north and play well at Lucas Oil and that New Pal will be exposed as a program that's NOT one of the best ten in the state. But I'll be the first to come on here and admit that I'm an idiot if I'm wrong. 

I really do hope you hit up that link I posted of Coach Ralph and his break down of each quarter of the 2015 game against Snider. I think you will find he gave tons of credit to FW Snider and the types of players they had as well as a look into his thinking during the game and how he tested things early on to get Snider into the coverage he wanted to exploit them with his scheme. 

I have seen a couple of his clinic presentations and his thinking around his offensive scheme is interesting to learn. I think you will see why he has had the success he has at New Pal even with taking the talented 2018/2019 squad out of the equation.  

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, temptation said:

My most controversial point was that I had Ben Davis as my preseason #1...yuck, lol.

 

Idiot, lol. Obviously kidding. I don't think you're the only one who didn't predict Ben Davis's struggles at the beginning of the season. Not a team anyone would want to play right now. Hard to imagine Brownsburg coming back they way they did. 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

3 hours ago, Boilernation said:

C'mon, there's a difference between saying you need to see it to believe it (I'm in that boat as well) and straight out insinuating that 6A teams north of 64 shouldn't even believe it's possible. 

Everyone asks when will a true North team breakthrough for a 6A title . I want to know when anyone not named Carmel , Center Grove , Ben Davis or Warren Central will win a 6A title .

[BTF]

6 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

I really do hope you hit up that link I posted of Coach Ralph and his break down of each quarter of the 2015 game against Snider. I think you will find he gave tons of credit to FW Snider and the types of players they had as well as a look into his thinking during the game and how he tested things early on to get Snider into the coverage he wanted to exploit them with his scheme. 

I have seen a couple of his clinic presentations and his thinking around his offensive scheme is interesting to learn. I think you will see why he has had the success he has at New Pal even with taking the talented 2018/2019 squad out of the equation.  

I watched that four quarter breakdown when it first came out. Good stuff. I've always given Ralph credit for being one of the best coaches in Indiana. I just didn't like how the whole thing came across as his coaching vs Snider's elite talent. Snider's staff isn't half bad. 

[BTF]

3 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

Everyone asks when will a true North team breakthrough for a 6A title . I want to know when anyone not named Carmel , Center Grove , Ben Davis or Warren Central will win a 6A title .

It's been the Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central show for obvious reasons. Center Grove is the only program that's been able to break through. The landscape of the HCC is pretty damn good, but until one of them breaks through, they're no different than Crown Point or Carroll.