Blind Draw - An Absolute Tragedy

[Stoner]

2 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Any system that pits the literal two best teams in the entire state against each other in the opening round in which the winner gets either a soon to be 1-8 team or a 3-6 team for the sectional title is absolute failure. It's not just broken, it's fundamentally flawed. 

And any system like the one you're stumping for that offers half the field a now-meaningless10th game and reduced revenues is an extremely tough sell to those schools

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, DT said:

Bad publicity is still publicity

The IHSAA would rather have people complaining about the seeding process than not talking about it at all.  Its a great discussion point.  

You don't think the same discussions would occur only to the tune of "who should be in" or "who should be out"?

Not really one of your brightest points.

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, Stoner said:

And any system like the one you're stumping for that offers half the field a now-meaningless10th game and reduced revenues is an extremely tough sell to those schools

So literally the system(s) that the other 49 ststes + DC use? 

Why should our postseason cater to the teams that don't deserve be anywhere near a postseason? That makes zero sense. A split gate revenue under the all-in format doesn't make my top 100 reasons as to why Indiana should go a qualifier. It's irrelevant.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Footballking16

[Guest]

YAY!  We did it!

😂

[Stoner]

6 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

So literally the system(s) that the other 49 ststes + DC use? 

Why should our postseason cater to the teams that don't deserve? That makes zero sense. A split gate revenue under the all-in format doesn't make my top 100 reasons as to why Indiana should go a qualifier. 

It doesnt have to make your top 100 reasons. 

But I'm guessing its in the top 2 or 3 of the 150+ omitted schools' athletic directors.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Stoner

[Coach Nowlin]

53 minutes ago, DannEllenwood said:

Come on guys, you can get there......

 

48 minutes ago, Gipper said:

I say it's eclipsed by 2:00 CDT...

and I'll do my part!

consummate teammate--that's how I roll...

I could care less on page numbers!!! 

 

I JUST WANT/NEED BOOSTERS BABY!!!

35 minutes ago, DT said:

If nothing else, we are unique.

One advantage we have is a lack of bickering due to playoff exclusion.  Look at the surrounding states.  Especially Illinois.  They seem to be tinkering with their playoff system all the time.  That is a clear sign of dissatisfaction amongst the rank and file.

Tennessee and KY are dealing with PP issues.  

In Indiana, all is quiet.  Everyone is satisfied.

The IHSAA got it right.

 

+1 

[Footballking16]

20 minutes ago, Stoner said:

It doesnt have to make your top 100 reasons. 

But I'm guessing its in the top 2 or 3 of the 150+ omitted schools' athletic directors.

You get an additional home game essentially every other year where you get to keep ALL the gate revenue.

In a qualifying system, every single game whether it be home or away now has actual value or real meaning. That alone should boost gate revenue.

Keeping the current system because of shared gate revenue while completely watering down the entire postseason isn't right.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Footballking16

[from_the_sidelines007]

15 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

you don't think that IHSAA office would assign a Sectional final / Regional/ Semi State / State level crew to these big 1st round matchups?   Cmon man......  

only 4 "tragedies" this year.   Not bad if I say so myself.   

also:   For our annual whine fest about the tournament proceedings, sponsored here by Gridiron Digest, don't forget to think about being a booster, where else can you find yourselves a community of folks with varied opinions, strong or otherwise all in 1 spot.   

😎

https://gridirondigest.net/clients/donations/1-2019-20-budget/

 

 

Great reminder, Coach Nowlin!

C'mon folks, the GID could use a few more supporters.  Click the link and help keep our open format able to pay the bills.

 

as always,  the game is better 

from_the_sidelines007 

[globemstr3]

Take a look at the Sectional 40 bracket. Its insane and a lot of money to be lost at gates and communities.

[BCstate]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Any system that pits the literal two best teams in the entire state against each other in the opening round in which the winner gets either a soon to be 1-8 team or a 3-6 team for the sectional title is absolute failure. It's not just broken, it's fundamentally flawed. 

I was cringing waiting for the Chatard/West Laf first round game. 

[hick]

7 minutes ago, globemstr3 said:

Take a look at the Sectional 40 bracket. Its insane and a lot of money to be lost at gates and communities.

Have you even looked at some of the other draws? What makes sectional 40 "insane"?  It's actually a pretty fair draw for everyone. 

In a seeded bracket Linton and Mater Dei would be set to play in the final (in Evansville). Instead, that game will be a week earlier if both teams get there. Not really that big of a deal.

Several sectionals are much, much worse.  I would say 40 is one of the more accurate draws if you compared it to an actual seeded format. 

 

[Guest DT]

6 minutes ago, BCstate said:

I was cringing waiting for the Chatard/West Laf first round game. 

Would you rather see Chatard-WL on a crisp dark October Friday night or in mid November with sleet, mud and wind?

 

[itiswhatitis]

3 minutes ago, hick said:

Have you even looked at some of the other draws? What makes sectional 40 "insane"?  It's actually a pretty fair draw for everyone. 

In a seeded bracket Linton and Mater Dei would be set to play in the final (in Evansville). Instead, that game will be a week earlier if both teams get there. Not really that big of a deal.

Several sectionals are much, much worse.  I would say 40 is one of the more accurate draws if you compared it to an actual seeded format. 

 

The best 2 teams in sectional 40 are Mater Dei and Linton which both ended up in the top half of the bracket.  The bottom bracket is set up for North Knox to play in the sectional title game.  The only other team worth mentioning is Tell City.  North Knox will take them out in the second round.  Linton took out North Knox on the road a couple of weeks ago, yet it is North Knox who gets the luck of the draw and will play for the sectional title.  The time for seeding was years ago!  

[hick]

5 minutes ago, itiswhatitis said:

The best 2 teams in sectional 40 are Mater Dei and Linton which both ended up in the top half of the bracket.  The bottom bracket is set up for North Knox to play in the sectional title game.  The only other team worth mentioning is Tell City.  North Knox will take them out in the second round.  Linton took out North Knox on the road a couple of weeks ago, yet it is North Knox who gets the luck of the draw and will play for the sectional title.  The time for seeding was years ago!  

I agree.  Did I say something different?  My point was instead of Linton and Mater Dei playing in the championship they will in round 2, which compared to some other draws, isn't that bad. Sectional 40 lined up pretty well.  Pioneer, Cass, Avon, Brownsburg, and others have much worse draws. 

If Linton swaps with NK how would you feel?

Edited October 14, 2019 by hick

[Footballking16]

6 minutes ago, DT said:

Would you rather see Chatard-WL on a crisp dark October Friday night or in mid November with sleet, mud and wind?

 

I'd like to see both teams seeded appropriate to their regular season success. This is a game that at a minimum should be played at the regional level, if not semi-state or the state finals. 

[gonzoron]

21 minutes ago, BCstate said:

I was cringing waiting for the Chatard/West Laf first round game. 

I'm the one cringing seeing a West Lafayette/Hamilton Heights first round game. At least I won't have to drive very far.

[WWFan]

All in. Seed top 2 in each sectional. Higher seed host sectional finals. Both 1 and 2 seeds host rd 1. All other games random draw. If neither of highest 2 seeds make finals use same method now to determine home team

[Basementbias]

I shouldn't complain this year as the draw worked out very nice for my Flying Jets and also because South Adams is in a different sectional. It seemed that the draws the last decade since both schools were in the same class and sectional, had them meeting in the first round if not then the 2nd. It does suck that Busco and Southwood play the first game instead of the 2nd round. Also sucks that Monroe Central should play South Adams in the 2nd round instead of the finals. Hopefully the regional works itself out though and either AC, Southwood, or Busco takes on South Adams (or Monroe Central if they pull off an upset). If we get AC vs SA in round 2, I hope it just monsoons like it did in Woodburn this past Friday. 😄 

[Bonecrusher]

32 minutes ago, DT said:

Would you rather see Chatard-WL on a crisp dark October Friday night or in mid November with sleet, mud and wind?

 

Wonder what the players answer to this question would be?  Seriously.  1st round exit for one of them, or play a game against another elite team in epic conditions?   It somewhat depends on how you, or the players, look at it.

Can't answer for these kids now obviously, but I know my boys preferred to play good teams late rounds in any kind of weather, they just wanted to go as deep as possible and didn't care what they had to play in to do it - and they did a couple times at neutral sites in North TX with temp in low 30's, windchill mid-upper 20's, wintry mix coming down, and they loved it.  They (the team) saw it as a way to prove how tough they were. The sting of winter weather was temporary, the pride of going deeper than any other team in their schools history lasted a long time.   On the other hand us fans were miserable (DT, you are spot on regarding the fans).

Regarding the field, by the time you get a few rounds in wouldn't there be enough turf fields available to eliminate the muddy/wet/sloppy conditions? 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Bonecrusher

[slice60]

18 hours ago, jets said:

Funny as a wrestling coach we figure out how to SEED a SECTIONAL and I’m pretty sure that is IHSAA sanctioned. 

The fact the IHSAA won’t seed football sectionals is pure LAZINESS. A criteria could be set, just as it is in wrestling, and it would get accomplished and guess what?? It would be a helluva lot better than we have now. Would at least give SOME meaning to a good regular season. 

You're right. I should have said they use Blind Draw in every TEAM sport.

Should we start a discussion about not having Wrestlebacks in the IHSAA Tournament? Or the lack of a true Team Wrestling Tournament sanctioned by the IHSAA?

 

18 hours ago, BTF said:

Actually, just the beginning.

Overall attendance would be better in a seeded tournament. The blind draw is costing athletic departments money. Irresponsible. 

I think the IHSAA makes most of their revenue from tournament revenue. So they are hurting themselves.

[Guest DT]

2 minutes ago, Bonecrusher said:

Wonder what the players answer to this question would be?  Seriously.  Not trying to stir the pot.  1st round exit for one of them, or play a game against another elite team in epic conditions? 

Can't answer for these kids now obviously, but I know my boys preferred to play good teams late rounds in bad weather - and they did a couple times at neutral sites in North TX with temp in low 30's, windchill mid-upper 20's, wintry mix coming down, and they loved it.  The sting of winter weather was temporary, the pride of going deeper than any other team in their schools history lasted a long time.   On the other hand us fans were miserable (you are spot on regarding the fans).

Regarding the field, by the time you get a few rounds in wouldn't there be enough turf fields available to eliminate the muddy/wet/sloppy conditions? 

Probably.

But what a letdown for a #1 seed to practice all week following the draw , knowing they are a 65 point favorite over the #8 seed.

And what additional life lessons are to be learned by the 0-9 #8 seed, going in as a huge 65 point dog against the 9-0 top seed.

Really?  Why bother.

Is this competitive balance and what Bobby Cox and his henchmen dreamed of for Indiana high school football?

 

2 minutes ago, slice60 said:

You're right. I should have said they use Blind Draw in every TEAM sport.

Should we start a discussion about not having Wrestlebacks in the IHSAA Tournament? Or the lack of a true Team Wrestling Tournament sanctioned by the IHSAA?

 

I think the IHSAA makes most of their revenue from tournament revenue. So they are hurting themselves.

Doubtful

1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 first round games will be very poor draws.  The outcome is predetermined.  Why go?

[Coach Nowlin]

5 minutes ago, WWFan said:

All in. Seed top 2 in each sectional. Higher seed host sectional finals. Both 1 and 2 seeds host rd 1. All other games random draw. If neither of highest 2 seeds make finals use same method now to determine home team

I believe that was what the polled IFCA Coaches came out to.  

AS SEEN HERE:  https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2017/11/26/high-school-football-coaches-present-seeding-mercy-rule-proposal/895660001/  

Quote

 

While Indiana High School Athletic Association commissioner Bobby Cox said last week in an interview with the IndyStar that he does not favor a seeding system, he did leave the door slightly open – with a caveat.

“Until the football coaches come up with a mercy rule that everybody can live with and it gets passed, I will not entertain the notion of seeding,” Cox said.

According to IFCA assistant executive director and Noblesville coach Jason Simmons, the proposal will include a mercy rule.

“We can take a tournament that is really good right now and blend seeding into it,” Simmons said.

The proposal, which will be officially submitted to the IHSAA in January, calls for seeding the top two teams in Class A, 2A, 3A and 4A with the remainder determined by the blind draw. That format would erase the possibility of first-round sectional matchups like Class 4A second-ranked Evansville Reitz vs. third-ranked Evansville Central, which happened this season in Sectional 24.

 

 

OR THIS: 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2018/02/02/high-school-sports-notebook-seeding-football-tournament-hold/300246002/

 

Quote

 

INDIANAPOLIS – A proposal to seed the high school football sectional is on hold.

The Indiana Football Coaches Association, which had planned to submit a proposal on seeding in January, has decided to shelve those plans. IFCA assistant executive director and Noblesville coach Jason Simmons said the feedback received from the Indiana High School Coaches Association was that a proposal that included a seeding element would not be considered.

Simmons said a large majority of coaches and athletic administrators supported the potential proposal, which would have seeded the top two teams in Class A, 2A, 3A and 4A by the Sagarin Ratings. For Class 5A and 6A, each four-team sectional would combine with another four-team sectional for an eight-team field and the top two seeded by the Sagarin Ratings. The remaining teams would still be slotted in the bracket by a blind draw.

“The IFCA’s proposal was to run a pilot year for 2A and 6A for comparative data on finances, tournament draw procedures and other factors prior to implementing a full tournament with the next reclassification cycle in the 2019 season,” Simmons said.

IHSAA commissioner Bobby Cox does not favor a seeding system and said in November that it would not be considered unless a mercy rule was also included in the proposal.

Simmons expects the conversation to continue.

“The IFCA is appreciative of the participation from the coaches,” he said. “We also trust the conversation about seeding will continue as we look to take an already good product and make it better.”

 

 

SO ONCE AGAIN I REPEAT:   IFCA, ADMINS, have attempted to put forth something VERY RECENTLY, it was shot down VERY QUICKLY, even after the mercy rule has taken shape.  

 

I look forward to IFCA Winter Board of Directors meeting, (actually I am not, as I hope to be preparing for a game that day, just saying)   

 

 

[Thor77]

8 minutes ago, Basementbias said:

I shouldn't complain this year as the draw worked out very nice for my Flying Jets and also because South Adams is in a different sectional. It seemed that the draws the last decade since both schools were in the same class and sectional, had them meeting in the first round if not then the 2nd. It does suck that Busco and Southwood play the first game instead of the 2nd round. Also sucks that Monroe Central should play South Adams in the 2nd round instead of the finals. Hopefully the regional works itself out though and either AC, Southwood, or Busco takes on South Adams (or Monroe Central if they pull off an upset). If we get AC vs SA in round 2, I hope it just monsoons like it did in Woodburn this past Friday. 😄 

Hey, none of that bad juju. Go away.

But in all seriousness, I like having Monroe Central second round. With the system being what it is, I'd rather have the tough opponent second round, have an "easier" game in the sectional finals then get whoever had to claw their way through the other sectional. 

[slice60]

35 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

I'd like to see both teams seeded appropriate to their regular season success. This is a game that at a minimum should be played at the regional level, if not semi-state or the state finals. 

So you want the entire field seeded? I'm sure that wouldn't cause controversy.

Plus, you would have long travel for early round games. I'm sure no one would bitch about that-- both because the road team would have to sit on a bus for 2-3 hours & only their fans diehard would be make the trip (which means lower attendance).

ARE ANY OF THESE BRILLIANT IDEAS EVEN ON THE IHSAA RADAR OR IS IT JUST AN ANNUAL GID FORUM WASTE OF TIME???

[Basementbias]

13 minutes ago, Thor77 said:

Hey, none of that bad juju. Go away.

But in all seriousness, I like having Monroe Central second round. With the system being what it is, I'd rather have the tough opponent second round, have an "easier" game in the sectional finals then get whoever had to claw their way through the other sectional. 

It may be our only chance at making it a game if they play a second time.