Who is on the Tournament Success Factor bubble?

[BTF]

2 minutes ago, crimsonace1 said:

But mostly, the program recruits itself. People see success and they want to be a part of it.

And that speaks volumes of the Cathedral program. I've suspected everything in your post. All I'm saying is that you can't compare Cathedral to a program like Adams Central, who truly is at the mercy of small community. It's not like the Irish are creating these football players from a random group of 600 boys. That's not even possible. Personally? I think kids should be able to go wherever they want to go to play football, therefore the need for a success factor. 

[BTF]

15 minutes ago, Footballking16 said:

Success breeds success, what's new there? I'm talking about tampering and transferring running rampant here in central Indy...with public schools being the biggest offenders. Kids playing at multiple schools over 4 years. A kid living on one side of town playing for a high school on the other side of town. Kids jumping county lines to play sports. Kids following AAU coaches. It's happening everywhere.

None of that will change anytime soon

6A needs to drop to 16 teams. These mega schools are recruiting and theres nowhere for them to bump up. Instead, you have a school of 3500 kids bringing in talent from the outside to compete with that other program that has over 3000 kids. The victims are those smaller schools in the 2000-2400 range that stand NO chance to ever win a state championship. I mean damn, if Cathedral can't do, who in their right mind ever thinks that Columbus North, Zionsville, Harrison, or Portage will? Get better or get used to it? Bull shit. 

[rob]

22 minutes ago, adambetz said:

And now Lutheran and Adams Central are well on their way to being in 3A in 2026.

Yeah, if it wasn't for the have to be in the upper class for two years before you can move again it's highly likely they might have jumped again.

Adams Central is not a parochial school.  Let the other schools have a chance.  And AC has the intestinal fortitude to welcome the challenge.

[adambetz]

41 minutes ago, rob said:

Yeah, if it wasn't for the have to be in the upper class for two years before you can move again it's highly likely they might have jumped again.

Adams Central is not a parochial school.  Let the other schools have a chance.  And AC has the intestinal fortitude to welcome the challenge.

AC beating Bellmont 70-0 in sectional would be a funny story to tell your father or grandfather.

Edited November 15, 2024 by adambetz

[Robert]

2 hours ago, cpg1970 said:

Unless you are a private school that can recruit.  I agree with you regarding public schools, who are forced to play the hand they are dealt.

 

2 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

Don’t forget LCC and Madder Days 

I'm glad Luers is out of this!  🙂

[MDAlum82]

1 hour ago, Footballking16 said:

Recruiting in the public schools is way more rampant than in the private schools...at least down here in Indy. 

This is the proverbial elephant in the room that is all too often brushed aside or simply ignored as it does not fit the desired narrative that only P/Ps recruit.

[PHJIrish]

6 hours ago, BTF said:

Dwenger, Luers................Snider, New Pal, East Central

Yep!

5 hours ago, Robert said:

 

I'm glad Luers is out of this!  🙂

All 1150 students at Cathedral are "recruited."  If that wasn't the case, the doors would be closed.

[PHJIrish]

7 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

Don’t forget LCC and Madder Days 

Yep, them 2!

[tango]

11 hours ago, Donnie Baker said:

Don’t forget LCC and Madder Days 

MD has never been bumped up due to the SF in football

Edited November 16, 2024 by tango

[slice60]

I am a big proponent of the Success Factor. However, I would make this one change -- a team CANNOT be bumped up unless they won a State Championship-- you can call it the "Adams Central asterisk". Adams Central football got bumped from 1A to 2A with runner-up finishes in '22 & '23 ('21 too). In my opinion, if you don't have the BIGGEST trophy in your school trophy case, then you should still be competing in your enrollment class.

This could be accomplished by simply changing the Bump-Up criteria to 7 points while changing the points earned for being a State Champion from 4 to 5. So being State Champ(5) + Regional Champ(2) = 7 points (Bumped Up). But Runner-up(3) + Runner-up = 6 points (NOT Bumped Up). 

Fun fact: As the SF currently works, Adams Central football could conceivably get Bumped Up into 3A for the '26 & '27 seasons if they become 2A State Runner-ups in both '24 & '25. In other words, they could be Runner-up for 5 straight seasons (0 state titles) & find themselves playing 2 classes above enrollment. 

 

 

[WWFan]

6 hours ago, slice60 said:

I am a big proponent of the Success Factor. However, I would make this one change -- a team CANNOT be bumped up unless they won a State Championship-- you can call it the "Adams Central asterisk". Adams Central football got bumped from 1A to 2A with runner-up finishes in '22 & '23 ('21 too). In my opinion, if you don't have the BIGGEST trophy in your school trophy case, then you should still be competing in your enrollment class.

This could be accomplished by simply changing the Bump-Up criteria to 7 points while changing the points earned for being a State Champion from 4 to 5. So being State Champ(5) + Regional Champ(2) = 7 points (Bumped Up). But Runner-up(3) + Runner-up = 6 points (NOT Bumped Up). 

Fun fact: As the SF currently works, Adams Central football could conceivably get Bumped Up into 3A for the '26 & '27 seasons if they become 2A State Runner-ups in both '24 & '25. In other words, they could be Runner-up for 5 straight seasons (0 state titles) & find themselves playing 2 classes above enrollment. 

 

 

They are 2A by enrollment. They could've went 0-20 last 2 years and be in 2A. I do however agree with the point. Haha

[Daniel_Bragg]

22 minutes ago, WWFan said:

They are 2A by enrollment. They could've went 0-20 last 2 years and be in 2A. I do however agree with the point. Haha

THANK YOU!!  Nothing against Adams Central, but I've seen this mentioned A LOT this year by people.  Many aren't aware that they moved up due to enrollment.

[foxbat]

4 hours ago, WWFan said:

They are 2A by enrollment. They could've went 0-20 last 2 years and be in 2A. I do however agree with the point. Haha

 

4 hours ago, Daniel_Bragg said:

THANK YOU!!  Nothing against Adams Central, but I've seen this mentioned A LOT this year by people.  Many aren't aware that they moved up due to enrollment.

What I think is funny is that this is really is only getting traction as a discussion point nowadays with Adams Central.  The first case happened over a decade ago and pretty much no one said anything about it when Scecina was the first, and only team until AC, to get bumped without a blue ring after back-to-back reds in 2011 and 2012.  Incidentally, like AC, Scecina, after getting bumped without a win, ended up with 2A enrollment numbers anyway.  Same, to an extent, for Linton, although Linton picked up a blue ring in the second visit on the way out of 1A, got SF'd, and then grew large enough to stay in 2A by enrollment.

[Basementbias]

43 minutes ago, foxbat said:

 

What I think is funny is that this is really is only getting traction as a discussion point nowadays with Adams Central.  The first case happened over a decade ago and pretty much no one said anything about it when Scecina was the first, and only team until AC, to get bumped without a blue ring after back-to-back reds in 2011 and 2012.  Incidentally, like AC, Scecina, after getting bumped without a win, ended up with 2A enrollment numbers anyway.  Same, to an extent, for Linton, although Linton picked up a blue ring in the second visit on the way out of 1A, got SF'd, and then grew large enough to stay in 2A by enrollment.

Notice though it's not really AC people complaining but I don't look everywhere to confirm. Heck most years we kept saying we probably could have won 2A instead of 1A during some of the Pioneer, LCC, and now Lutheran runs of 1A. Especially the year Woodlan was in the 2A game and we beat them by 9 or so in the conference championship game to end the regular season. 

[Basementbias]

21 hours ago, adambetz said:

AC beating Bellmont 70-0 in sectional would be a funny story to tell your father or grandfather.

I'm an AC guy over everything else but I want to see Bellmont get back to having deep playoff runs. Especially now with AC 2A, SA 1A, & Bellmont 3A. My ultimate dream is all 3 making the state finals in the same year & all 3 winning it all. May never happen but I can dream! Be cool to see Wells County do that as well.

Edited November 16, 2024 by Basementbias

[HoopsCoach]

On 11/15/2024 at 1:42 PM, Footballking16 said:

Recruiting in the public schools is way more rampant than in the private schools...at least down here in Indy. 

 

On 11/15/2024 at 1:25 PM, tango said:

All schools can recruit.

All schools, public and private, have the ability to accept students from outside their district.  Some are more active than others with their “recruiting”.  The difference, which remains a disadvantage for public schools, is that private schools can both recruit and exclude.  Public cannot exclude from their own district.  This is what motivates many public schools to “recruit” from outside their district.  If you’re stuck with the best and worst of your own, you have to try to get the best from others to compete with schools that have the choice to take only the best (or best they can get).

46 minutes ago, Basementbias said:

I'm an AC guy over everything else but I want to see Bellmont get back to having deep playoff runs. Especially now with AC 2A, SA 1A, & Bellmont 3A. My ultimate dream is all 3 making the state finals in the same year & all 3 winning it all. May never happen but I can dream! Be cool to see Wells County do that as well.

The number of students from the North Adams district who choose to go to Adams Central make that a very unlikely possibility.

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Basementbias said:

I'm an AC guy over everything else but I want to see Bellmont get back to having deep playoff runs. Especially now with AC 2A, SA 1A, & Bellmont 3A. My ultimate dream is all 3 making the state finals in the same year & all 3 winning it all. May never happen but I can dream! Be cool to see Wells County do that as well.

About the closest that Tippecanoe County has gotten to that is LCC and West Lafayette both winning state back in 2009.  In 2015, they both appeared at LOS, but West Lafayette lost to Chatard that year while LCC beat Linton.  I'd be happy if we'd have a shot at three, but with Harrison bumping up to 6A, McCutcheon not making it out of sectionals typically, Jeff seemingly stalling out at sectional crowns, at best, regardless of 6A or 5A, and a really long program build that awaits Faith Christian, I'm thinking Tippecanoe County is going to likely end up settling for the older glory days.

[slice60]

15 hours ago, WWFan said:

They are 2A by enrollment. They could've went 0-20 last 2 years and be in 2A. I do however agree with the point. Haha

My bad. I missed it. In fact, I did not realize that FW Luers is up in the 3A enrollment group.

[US31]

On 11/15/2024 at 5:45 PM, MDAlum82 said:

This is the proverbial elephant in the room that is all too often brushed aside or simply ignored as it does not fit the desired narrative that only P/Ps recruit.

The "recruiting" thing I always felt was a red herring...EVERY kid at a P/P is a recruit.  Thats the whole point of the system!  

I'll respond with a quote I've used for decades (can't remember the source, and I'm paraphrasing):  "This issue isn't the kids that P/P's have to count for enrollement....it's the kids the P/P's will never have to count that publics always have to count."

[MDAlum82]

10 hours ago, US31 said:

The "recruiting" thing I always felt was a red herring...EVERY kid at a P/P is a recruit.  Thats the whole point of the system!  

There is no such thing as "the system" when it comes to P/Ps.  There are several different "systems" throughout the state in metro areas such as Indy, Ft Wayne, Evansville, et al.  The Evv Catholic School system has approx 15 grade schools.  Approx 90% of their graduates feed into either Mater Dei or Memorial.   Are these students "recruited"? 

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, MDAlum82 said:

There is no such thing as "the system" when it comes to P/Ps.  There are several different "systems" throughout the state in metro areas such as Indy, Ft Wayne, Evansville, et al.  The Evv Catholic School system has approx 15 grade schools.  Approx 90% of their graduates feed into either Mater Dei or Memorial.   Are these students "recruited"? 

Same is roughly true for LCC, except at a much smaller level.  There are three elementary schools, one K-3, one 4-6, and one K-6, that feed into LCC Junior/Senior High.  Guerin is technically in the same diocese as LCC, the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana.  There are only two Catholic high schools on the whole diocese.  No one though travels from Lafayette to attend Guerin and no one travels from Noblesville to attend LCC, so the elementary schools that feed into each tend to be isolated from each other.

[Justasportsfan]

On 11/15/2024 at 2:57 PM, BTF said:

None of that will change anytime soon

6A needs to drop to 16 teams. These mega schools are recruiting and theres nowhere for them to bump up. I

Ohhhhhh but when I said the largest class should have teams vying for a sectional title as their 1st playoff game years ago I got crickets..yes I called it 7a n we couldn't get 7 games on the championship weekend schedule yet my point was still valid!

[BTF]

28 minutes ago, Justasportsfan said:

Ohhhhhh but when I said the largest class should have teams vying for a sectional title as their 1st playoff game years ago I got crickets..yes I called it 7a n we couldn't get 7 games on the championship weekend schedule yet my point was still valid!

Agree. Hell, Cathedral will never win 6A. What'st that tell ya? Jeffersonville, Northrop, Portage, Harrison, Columbus North, and Zionsville are nothing more than sparring partners. 

[Justasportsfan]

On 11/16/2024 at 11:16 PM, slice60 said:

My bad. I missed it. In fact, I did not realize that FW Luers is up in the 3A enrollment group.

They tend to fluctuate yet mainly reside in 2a..crazy fact is Luers has never won a 3a semi state game..

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Justasportsfan said:

They tend to fluctuate yet mainly reside in 2a..crazy fact is Luers has never won a 3a semi state game..

I don't think it's that far off though as their 3A seasons have typically been ended by eventual state champs in those years.