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3A: Bishop Chatard vs Lawrenceburg


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8 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

@RingLeader#12 for BC is Colin Guy. He played his best game of the year. If he doesn’t make 3 big plays then Lawrenceburg’s offensive line would have deserved to be who everyone is talking about today. Those boys were just road graders.

Ya i knew his name 🤪

3 plays??  Seemed like he made 10-12 

Was everywhere 

congrats to both teams! Was a great game really. 

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28 minutes ago, Esso Ayche said:

But I cannot fathom that ANYone on the BC side of things that has a real clue about the state of BC football doesn't also have a bit of chapped @$$ for being relegated back into 3A for two more years when you know you would have been in the mix for a 4A title. Strongly in the mix.

 

I would contend that, while there may be a couple of folks that might be chapped, the vast majority basically take the mindset that Chatard has for most of their seasons, "Tell us where to play and that's what we'll do, play."  This is also the same that most teams that have been SF'd do.  Chatard takes each season as it comes and realizes that, when you take each season as the hand that you've been dealt and push to make it the best, regardless of conditions, eventually you get to where you can be and want to be.

Pioneer did it and didn't complain when the Kiser era was over and they were still taking their lumps in 2A.  Scecina did it when they were the poster team for SF as the only team to be SF'd to a higher level without earning a blue ring for the effort.  Cathedral has yo-yo'd and got beat up in 6A to only work their way through and become a more permanent fixture above their enrollment level.  I conjecture that schools like Chatard realize that, yes, they can take advantage of a seasonal or yearly situation, but that organic tends to be more long-lived.  Chatard will eventually end up more permanently outside of 3A, but like weightlifting, you are better off building the mass organically over time rather than rushing it for short-term satisfaction.  Chatard will likely still be in the mix for 4A in a decade too.  Again, the mantra of the SF'd tends to be fairly pragmatic: "Just tell us where to play."

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@foxbat I’m trying to get my brain wrapped around the SF thing so I hope you don’t mind me asking a few questions. Why don’t they treat it like British soccer leagues? Every year move up the two teams that play for the state title (or all 4 semi-state participants if you like) and move down the same corresponding number of teams. At some point all of the teams will trickle up or down to where their program belongs. They could recognize the teams in each class that punched highest above their weight and give them some sort of an award. It would allow them to brag about their program evenn if they don’t win a state title. Also, why is it such a big deal to reseed the teams each year? It seems like something that a few people could do over a weekend. Thanks 

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1 hour ago, foxbat said:

I would contend that, while there may be a couple of folks that might be chapped, the vast majority basically take the mindset that Chatard has for most of their seasons, "Tell us where to play and that's what we'll do, play."  This is also the same that most teams that have been SF'd do.  Chatard takes each season as it comes and realizes that, when you take each season as the hand that you've been dealt and push to make it the best, regardless of conditions, eventually you get to where you can be and want to be.

Pioneer did it and didn't complain when the Kiser era was over and they were still taking their lumps in 2A.  Scecina did it when they were the poster team for SF as the only team to be SF'd to a higher level without earning a blue ring for the effort.  Cathedral has yo-yo'd and got beat up in 6A to only work their way through and become a more permanent fixture above their enrollment level.  I conjecture that schools like Chatard realize that, yes, they can take advantage of a seasonal or yearly situation, but that organic tends to be more long-lived.  Chatard will eventually end up more permanently outside of 3A, but like weightlifting, you are better off building the mass organically over time rather than rushing it for short-term satisfaction.  Chatard will likely still be in the mix for 4A in a decade too.  Again, the mantra of the SF'd tends to be fairly pragmatic: "Just tell us where to play."

I thought that Linton-Stockton got the WHAMMY also?  I could be wrong, though...

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13 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

@foxbat I’m trying to get my brain wrapped around the SF thing so I hope you don’t mind me asking a few questions. Why don’t they treat it like British soccer leagues? Every year move up the two teams that play for the state title (or all 4 semi-state participants if you like) and move down the same corresponding number of teams. At some point all of the teams will trickle up or down to where their program belongs. They could recognize the teams in each class that punched highest above their weight and give them some sort of an award. It would allow them to brag about their program evenn if they don’t win a state title. Also, why is it such a big deal to reseed the teams each year? It seems like something that a few people could do over a weekend. Thanks 

Good question. That might work. I do believe that schools can "punch above their weight class" if they so desire. So any school wishing to  could voluntarily move up one class, correct? Maybe that's not the case today, but I do remember a school from the north doing that years ago. I can't remember which, but the move was from 4A to 5A.

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6 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

@foxbat I’m trying to get my brain wrapped around the SF thing so I hope you don’t mind me asking a few questions. Why don’t they treat it like British soccer leagues? Every year move up the two teams that play for the state title (or all 4 semi-state participants if you like) and move down the same corresponding number of teams. At some point all of the teams will trickle up or down to where their program belongs. They could recognize the teams in each class that punched highest above their weight and give them some sort of an award. It would allow them to brag about their program evenn if they don’t win a state title. Also, why is it such a big deal to reseed the teams each year? It seems like something that a few people could do over a weekend. Thanks 

Relegation and promotion has been proposed before.  It differs a bit in professional environments vs. high school sports.  The bigger issue is likely the relegation component has very few, if any teams that want to be singled out and told to move down below the "norm" level ... norm currently being classified as enrollment number classification.  I agree that it would be akin to a reverse Success Factor, but I think it's a hard selling point.  Even coaches who recognize that their teams are CURRENTLY less than competitive in their class are more likely to try to "tough it out" as opposed to get a concession and move downward.  In some cases, it's an issue of pride, in others it's a question of motivation for the team, in other cases it's a questions of "that's what the system is," etc. 

Success factor reworking tends to be in 2-year cycles, although the original IFCA proposal was for a 4-year cycle.  The argument for the 4-year cycle, which I tend to agree with, is that the current two-year cycle tends to focus more on current team success as opposed to program success, which, at least in theory, SF was supposed to address.  With a 2-year cycle, it's possible that a good class gets a program bumped up into an upper class and future classes are left covering that bill.  While 4-year can certainly see a program get caught in the mix with a couple of good classes optimally spaced, it's more likely to impact programs that are showing growth as opposed to addressing the symptom of a good class.

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11 minutes ago, Yuccaguy said:

I thought that Linton-Stockton got the WHAMMY also?  I could be wrong, though...

Linton picked up a blue ring versus Pioneer in 2016, after getting a red ring vs. LCC in 2015, before stepping on the SF elevator.  Secina picked up a pair of red rings in back-to-back seasons, 2011 and 2012, to LCC and then both moved to 2A in 2013.  In both Scecina's and Linton's cases, while SF took them up, eventually enrollment kept them up in 2A.

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10 minutes ago, WestfieldRocks said:

Good question. That might work. I do believe that schools can "punch above their weight class" if they so desire. So any school wishing to  could voluntarily move up one class, correct? Maybe that's not the case today, but I do remember a school from the north doing that years ago. I can't remember which, but the move was from 4A to 5A.

Mishawaka moved up ... about a decade or so ago?

Back in the day, a long ways back, Mishawaka Marian petitioned the IHSAA to move up a couple of classes, from 1A to 3A, but was only granted a one class move up at the time.  They eventually ended up in 3A.

Scecina also won a couple state titles in 2A back in the early 1990s and then enrollment numbers dropped and they would have moved down to 1A; but they opted to stay in 2A for a while.  Eventually moved back down to 1A on enrollment ... ended up being SF'd in the 2013 season and having enrollment go up again enough to keep them in 2A via enrollment.

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2 hours ago, foxbat said:

I would contend that, while there may be a couple of folks that might be chapped, the vast majority basically take the mindset that Chatard has for most of their seasons, "Tell us where to play and that's what we'll do, play."  This is also the same that most teams that have been SF'd do.  Chatard takes each season as it comes and realizes that, when you take each season as the hand that you've been dealt and push to make it the best, regardless of conditions, eventually you get to where you can be and want to be.

Pioneer did it and didn't complain when the Kiser era was over and they were still taking their lumps in 2A.  Scecina did it when they were the poster team for SF as the only team to be SF'd to a higher level without earning a blue ring for the effort.  Cathedral has yo-yo'd and got beat up in 6A to only work their way through and become a more permanent fixture above their enrollment level.  I conjecture that schools like Chatard realize that, yes, they can take advantage of a seasonal or yearly situation, but that organic tends to be more long-lived.  Chatard will eventually end up more permanently outside of 3A, but like weightlifting, you are better off building the mass organically over time rather than rushing it for short-term satisfaction.  Chatard will likely still be in the mix for 4A in a decade too.  Again, the mantra of the SF'd tends to be fairly pragmatic: "Just tell us where to play."

Columbus East won it in 4A, won it in 5A, and then took 2 absolute beat downs from Center Grove for 2 years.. I remember East fan’s back in the early 2010’s when they would complain about Cathedral winning it every year, then some of these same fans were complaining because East had to bump to 6A due to the SF. I used to tell them, you can’t have it both ways, you play where you are placed.  Chatard’s sustained success is going to be around for a while as you have stated, we will see how it all plays out in the coming years.  

4 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

@foxbat So maybe they throw in a “Dynasty Factor”. For example, If you play in the state championship game 3 out of 5 years you get moved up permanently? 

And then if you don’t win it in the next 2 years you bump back down? 

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Just now, Just a dad said:

@foxbat So maybe they throw in a “Dynasty Factor”. For example, If you play in the state championship game 3 out of 5 years you get moved up permanently? 

The way it is right now, you get bumped up after two-in-a-row and then only need 2 points, a pair of sectionals per season or a regional or higher in any one of the two seasons, and you stay up.  There are a couple of exceptions here where, due to the cycle alignments, it's possible for a team to see LOS three years in a row before getting bumped.  Of course, there's also a chance to get bumped when only seeing LOS once in a cycle too.  Case in point, LCC won state in 2019, lost in semi-state in 2020, and went to 2A via SF.

The problem with permanent is exemplified in a program like Pioneer.  Pioneer went to LOS three seasons in a row: red ring in 2016 and back-to-back blues in 2017 and 2018 including a dominating 60-0 2018 state performance.  They got bumped to 2A for the 2019 season.  Under the permanent proposal, they'd still be there.  They returned to 1A though these season where they went 2-8 ... realize though that they went 9-3 in 2A in 2021.

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On 11/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, hhpatriot04 said:

Depends if you're playing Man or Zone under the safeties. 

Base Cover 2 is a "Zone" defense. There are variations Cover 2 Man Under (which would be man coverage), Tampa 2 (same as Cover 2 except MLB covers deep middle). Base Cover 2 is a full zone defense.

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So back to talk about the game. Are there any Lawrenceburg fans that can tell me if there was ever a real attempt by the team to develop a passing side of the playbook during their season? I realize they are a running team and that served them very well during the year. Winning games 47=0 is great when you have a strong defense and can run teams into submission but at some point every team has to throw the ball. I just don’t understand why they didn’t give their QB chances during the season (they threw about 6 passes a game) to work on some short to intermediate passing concepts. Even against subpar competition it helps develop rhythm and confidence. That seems to be the real flaw in their preparation and it likely cost them the state title. They have some really good players and will likely continue to make long runs in the playoffs (at least in the near future) but I wouldn’t be surprised if being one dimensional continued to cost them in some big games. 

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37 minutes ago, Just a dad said:

So back to talk about the game. Are there any Lawrenceburg fans that can tell me if there was ever a real attempt by the team to develop a passing side of the playbook during their season? I realize they are a running team and that served them very well during the year. Winning games 47=0 is great when you have a strong defense and can run teams into submission but at some point every team has to throw the ball. I just don’t understand why they didn’t give their QB chances during the season (they threw about 6 passes a game) to work on some short to intermediate passing concepts. Even against subpar competition it helps develop rhythm and confidence. That seems to be the real flaw in their preparation and it likely cost them the state title. They have some really good players and will likely continue to make long runs in the playoffs (at least in the near future) but I wouldn’t be surprised if being one dimensional continued to cost them in some big games. 

LOL....you clearly haven't seen Lawrenceburg much in the past couple years - they could throw it around the lot and were quite good at it. 

Good coaches coach to their players strength - L-Burg knew where their bread was buttered this year and made it to Lucas. 

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1 hour ago, Just a dad said:

So back to talk about the game. Are there any Lawrenceburg fans that can tell me if there was ever a real attempt by the team to develop a passing side of the playbook during their season? I realize they are a running team and that served them very well during the year. Winning games 47=0 is great when you have a strong defense and can run teams into submission but at some point every team has to throw the ball. I just don’t understand why they didn’t give their QB chances during the season (they threw about 6 passes a game) to work on some short to intermediate passing concepts. Even against subpar competition it helps develop rhythm and confidence. That seems to be the real flaw in their preparation and it likely cost them the state title. They have some really good players and will likely continue to make long runs in the playoffs (at least in the near future) but I wouldn’t be surprised if being one dimensional continued to cost them in some big games. 

History might say, “Pot meet kettle” as regards Chatard passing the ball - or, more accurately, not passing the ball.  Chatard won 7 State Championships between 2003-2013 under Coach Lorenzano arguably being the MOST one dimensional team in the State.  I can recall a Regional game in 2009 v. Batesville where he threw the ball once near the end zone and it was intercepted and almost returned for a TD.  It was the last pass of the game (maybe the only one).

He had 2 backs with over 200 running yards each that game.  That system worked well for Coach L.  Coach Doyle has really changed it up these days at Chatard.

With regard to Lawrenceburg, they graduated an incredibly talented QB/receiver duo just last year.

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7 hours ago, Just a dad said:

So back to talk about the game. Are there any Lawrenceburg fans that can tell me if there was ever a real attempt by the team to develop a passing side of the playbook during their season? I realize they are a running team and that served them very well during the year. Winning games 47=0 is great when you have a strong defense and can run teams into submission but at some point every team has to throw the ball. I just don’t understand why they didn’t give their QB chances during the season (they threw about 6 passes a game) to work on some short to intermediate passing concepts. Even against subpar competition it helps develop rhythm and confidence. That seems to be the real flaw in their preparation and it likely cost them the state title. They have some really good players and will likely continue to make long runs in the playoffs (at least in the near future) but I wouldn’t be surprised if being one dimensional continued to cost them in some big games. 

As mentioned, Lburg graduated an "incredibly talented QB/receiver duo just last year".  Yoon, the QB part of that duo threw for 9115 yards and 95 TD's over his HS career so there are playbooks in the coaching office that have a few pass plays in them.  I also like mentioning that Yoon ran for 3649 yards and 51 TD's because those are nice complimentary numbers for a throwing QB at any level. 

I thought LBurg may try and pass the ball more this year but the Tigers were looking at a new starting QB, a completely new offense, majority of the O-line as first year starters....they didn't know what they had on offense.  We already knew RB Bennett was good but he missed games earlier in the season with an injury so I'm guessing the coaching staff was just trying to win games.  RB Witte really didn't start running the ball outside of some wildcat short yardage situations until the end of the regular season and start of the playoffs.  As far as run heavy, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" I guess. The run heavy game plans got the Tigers to the state finals and after three quarters, they were still sniffing at a championship.  If anyone didn't notice, Chatard has a damn good football with gamers and playmakers that, for those first six minutes of the fourth quarter, made championship winning plays.

RB Bennett is back next year so LBurg will still be run first.  QB Ahaus has no problem with arm strength and it looks like there's WR talent available for next year so with a year a varsity experience under his belt, I think LBurg will throw the ball more next year.  I know South Dearborn, Batesville, and others will have something to say about it, but LBurg would love to battle Heritage Hills, Southridge, and/or Gibson Southern again for a chance to win those blue ribbons next year.

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15 minutes ago, Moonpie29 said:

As mentioned, Lburg graduated an "incredibly talented QB/receiver duo just last year".  Yoon, the QB part of that duo threw for 9115 yards and 95 TD's over his HS career so there are playbooks in the coaching office that have a few pass plays in them.  I also like mentioning that Yoon ran for 3649 yards and 51 TD's because those are nice complimentary numbers for a throwing QB at any level. 

I thought LBurg may try and pass the ball more this year but the Tigers were looking at a new starting QB, a completely new offense, majority of the O-line as first year starters....they didn't know what they had on offense.  We already knew RB Bennett was good but he missed games earlier in the season with an injury so I'm guessing the coaching staff was just trying to win games.  RB Witte really didn't start running the ball outside of some wildcat short yardage situations until the end of the regular season and start of the playoffs.  As far as run heavy, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" I guess. The run heavy game plans got the Tigers to the state finals and after three quarters, they were still sniffing at a championship.  If anyone didn't notice, Chatard has a damn good football with gamers and playmakers that, for those first six minutes of the fourth quarter, made championship winning plays.

RB Bennett is back next year so LBurg will still be run first.  QB Ahaus has no problem with arm strength and it looks like there's WR talent available for next year so with a year a varsity experience under his belt, I think LBurg will throw the ball more next year.  I know South Dearborn, Batesville, and others will have something to say about it, but LBurg would love to battle Heritage Hills, Southridge, and/or Gibson Southern again for a chance to win those blue ribbons next year.

Lawrenceburg's coaches know how to coach to their team's strengths. That's good coaching. I respect the hell out of Vince Lorenzano, but he took the opposite approach. His stubborn offensive play calling was always very frustrating for me.  I personally think coach Doyle does a better job of tailoring his offense to his positional talent, but everyone has different methods for running a successful program.

Sounds like you guys have a lot of pieces coming back next year. Coach Knigga's son #10 was also very impressive on both sides of the ball.  I would not be surprised at all to see Lawrenceburg playing in Lucas Oil again next year! Congrats again on a great season!

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1 hour ago, TheDoctor22 said:

Lawrenceburg's coaches know how to coach to their team's strengths. That's good coaching. I respect the hell out of Vince Lorenzano, but he took the opposite approach. His stubborn offensive play calling was always very frustrating for me.  I personally think coach Doyle does a better job of tailoring his offense to his positional talent, but everyone has different methods for running a successful program.

Sounds like you guys have a lot of pieces coming back next year. Coach Knigga's son #10 was also very impressive on both sides of the ball.  I would not be surprised at all to see Lawrenceburg playing in Lucas Oil again next year! Congrats again on a great season!

Thanks.  I think all programs like having veteran players that are Sophomores (Noah Knigga)…it will be very interesting to watch him continue to develop over the next couple of years. 
I’ve never received a paycheck to coach football so any second guessing is usually based on beer arrogance and limited knowledge.  I trust the coaches here in the Burg…lot of W’s over the past 10 years. 

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