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Chatard vs Knox Semi-state


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2 hours ago, tango said:

 

I would be interested in knowing what had you in the hallowed halls of 1500 Lincoln Ave so as to be able to make a comparison between Memorial and Southridge? Our students wear uniforms (including ties for boys), so the populations will look much different. But aside from that, I will agree with you 100% that the expectations for success in all aspects of the high school experience at a p/p school are very high, and there is likely a significant amount of students in most public schools whose parents do not have that same expectation. 

I have great respect for Titan32, but his "effective enrollment" theory is flawed. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

 

I don’t quarrel much with folks when they point out that there is ON THE WHOLE a different kid roaming the halls (with different parents as importantly) on P/Ps v. Publics that often have many who are there solely because they are directed to be but I will leave you all with a question.

If the difference is solely the type of kid (more driven/motivated, more athletic…either or both) then why aren’t the halls of Chatard (since this conversation is, momentarily, focused on Chatard) simply replete with Basketball, Soccer, Baseball, etc. State Championship hardware?  It has been, rightfully, noted here that a certain 3A team generally looks forward to wrestling matches v. Chatard.  Other teams look forward generally to hoops games, etc. v. Chatard.  Chatard Boys generally do ONE sport remarkably well….but are absolutely normal at best in most everything else.

As regards football….something else or in addition must be at play.

PS - I wrote this before reading @tango’s post which I think is very insightful.  “Thank you” (still out of emojis).

Well - to answer @tango question as far as the difference - what I DID NOT see was a school with a large student population filled with free/reduced lunch #'s, students with IEP's, or a large EL population. 

Not saying a school can't be successful with those numbers, but just pointing out the differences and the challenges those can bring. 

And look - I'm not bashing P/P education or even their success. Good for them - but I just can't fathom how one can IGNORE those obvious factors and just point to "CYO" and a hard work ethic as reasons for success. 

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2 minutes ago, jets said:

Well - to answer @tango question as far as the difference - what I DID NOT see was a school with a large student population filled with free/reduced lunch #'s, students with IEP's, or a large EL population. 

And I would not dispute that our percentages are lower than at a public school, but I bet they are higher than what you think they are. I can't speak for every p/p, but our student population has gotten much more diverse over the past 10 years, which to me is a good thing for many reasons. 

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1 minute ago, jets said:

 

Well - to answer @tango question as far as the difference - what I DID NOT see was a school with a large student population filled with free/reduced lunch #'s, students with IEP's, or a large EL population. 

Not saying a school can't be successful with those numbers, but just pointing out the differences and the challenges those can bring. 

And look - I'm not bashing P/P education or even their success. Good for them - but I just can't fathom how one can IGNORE those obvious factors and just point to "CYO" and a hard work ethic as reasons for success. 

I’m not necessarily arguing with you as much as I’m positing a question myself.  It can’t solely be explained by student body makeup alone when all the other sports are VERY normal.  Maybe it’s all about emphasis.  With that, I wholly disagree with a mandatory bump in all sports.  

The “targeting” of the Success Factor strikes me as the best way…it just needs more refining and the IHSAA needs to factor it into Sectional makeup. I’d start there.  The mandatory bump strikes me as overly simplistic and unfair to other sports AND unfair to P/Ps that aren’t that extraordinary in ANY sport.  It’s a sledgehammer in place of a scalpel.

I think it was Tom Sowell that saiid, “There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”

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37 minutes ago, HHPatriots said:

When the thought of the game itself is unbelievably boring, this is the thread you get.

….and it’s not always like this every time the two “C” word Indy P/Ps are in the subject heading? 
 

It’s looking more like Facebook here every day.

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Just now, Just a dad said:

Times were better before the damn Catholics showed up and started defending themselves!!!

You have never met RebelDad, have you?  I can assure you he, and others, were defending the damn Catholics on this forum well before you joined.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Lysander said:

….and it’s not always like this every time the two “C” word Indy P/Ps are in the subject heading? 
 

It’s looking more like Facebook here every day.

If this fine forum ever devolves to the level of the fakebook page created by the Merryville moron.....I will walk away.  LOL

I've been super busy and haven't had time to respond to some of the stuff here.  It's all good and thoughtfully written.  I have great respect for all of my P/P brothers here, although I made this argument long before Memorial peaked (although hadn't coined the catchy catch phrase yet)...probably started around 2013 and 2015...what cold winters those were.

But come on fellas, P/Ps of various types have dominated in every state in the union forcing every state in the union to search for equitable solutions around why enrollment alone doesn't work.  The whole world can't be wrong that solutions are needed. 

So some P/Ps are better at some sports than others.  Publics and Privates aren't different in that regard because: 

All of the things it takes to make a program great, tradition, strong youth programs, strong feeder programs, great staff, great admin, community support...exist on both sides of the coin.  It would be rare for either a public or private to have all of these factors across every sport, boy and girl.  The issue is, and will always be, a higher percentage of quality hard working student athletes roaming the halls.  A P/P is more likely to attract these type of students just by the nature of getting what one pays for, and a desire for those parents who chose to make that sacrifice to pair their children with like minded families (which is a noble endeavor).

If we are going to go to the trouble of having a class system,  lets align them in a way that actually makes sense....not in a way that ends up looking like some are purchasing an advantage in athletics.   Enrollment alone just isn't fair and that is recognized nation wide.

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5 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

If this fine forum ever devolves to the level of the fakebook page created by the Merryville moron.....I will walk away.  LOL

I don't have a facebook account, and never will.  But who?

5 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

But come on fellas, P/Ps of various types have dominated in every state in the union forcing every state in the union to search for equitable solutions around why enrollment alone doesn't work.  The whole world can't be wrong that solutions are needed. 

So some P/Ps are better at some sports than others.  Publics and Privates aren't different in that regard because: 

All of the things it takes to make a program great, tradition, strong youth programs, strong feeder programs, great staff, great admin, community support...exist on both sides of the coin.  It would be rare for either a public or private to have all of these factors across every sport, boy and girl.  The issue is, and will always be, a higher percentage of quality hard working student athletes roaming the halls.  A P/P is more likely to attract these type of students just by the nature of getting what one pays for, and a desire for those parents who chose to make that sacrifice to pair their children with like minded families (which is a noble endeavor).

If we are going to go to the trouble of having a class system,  lets align them in a way that actually makes sense....not in a way that ends up looking like some are purchasing an advantage in athletics.   Enrollment alone just isn't fair and that is recognized nation wide.

Which is why a true system of promotion and relegation is the answer. It takes enrollment out of the picture entirely.  Because let's face it,  you meddle with with the enrollment based system by having a "success factor", a multiplier, etc.  you are still just meddling with a flawed system, and there is nothing you can do to completely fix it.

 

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2 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I don't have a facebook account, and never will.  But who?

Which is why a true system of promotion and relegation is the answer. It takes enrollment out of the picture entirely.  Because let's face it,  you meddle with with the enrollment based system by having a "success factor", a multiplier, etc.  you are still just meddling with a flawed system, and there is nothing you can do to completely fix it.

 

I'm afraid to say who, it is said that if you say his name three times in a chat forum he will magically appear!

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9 minutes ago, Muda69 said:

I don't have a facebook account, and never will.  But who?

Which is why a true system of promotion and relegation is the answer. It takes enrollment out of the picture entirely.  Because let's face it,  you meddle with with the enrollment based system by having a "success factor", a multiplier, etc.  you are still just meddling with a flawed system, and there is nothing you can do to completely fix it.

 

That boy named Cody 

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On 11/15/2023 at 5:30 AM, FastpacedO said:

I am not close to the program but @Lysander can't keep secrets and on rare occasions our brain waves sync up (when we actually use them) or at least reminisce about the days of CJB and Ly gets a sugar high. I digress in honor of Lysander's utter appreciation for how the IHSAA handles things with infinite wisdom, he will be suggesting to Coach Doyle to take all non starters and those not on the two-deep and write them on ping pong balls and select the 2 unlucky contestants. Unless of course one of those unlucky contestants mother is on the list to wash the uniforms from the previous game,

Quote

then a 3rd ping pong ball will be drawn

.Good night in the daytime! How many balls does Bobby Cox have?????? Table tennis anyone?

 

Just had to go out and bring up "Coach Junction Boy" some of the newer posters can't handle learning about CJB. Careful with those Bit 'O Honey's we don't want too many dentist visits!

 

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33 minutes ago, Titan32 said:

I'm afraid to say who, it is said that if you say his name three times in a chat forum he will magically appear!

Biggie Smalls?

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4 hours ago, jets said:

 

Well - to answer @tango question as far as the difference - what I DID NOT see was a school with a large student population filled with free/reduced lunch #'s, students with IEP's, or a large EL population. 

Not saying a school can't be successful with those numbers, but just pointing out the differences and the challenges those can bring. 

And look - I'm not bashing P/P education or even their success. Good for them - but I just can't fathom how one can IGNORE those obvious factors and just point to "CYO" and a hard work ethic as reasons for success. 

CYO 

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6 hours ago, BSUKingsmen said:

I can provide a little insight to the St Joe and Mish Marian question. In short, yes, they have let some bad seeds in due to vouchers and more has been swept under the rug at these 2 schools and tolerated than before vouchers came into play. There is now a fear of losing voucher money in these schools, so the discipline and standards they used to have have now been reduced. I know several legacy catholic school families that have pulled their kids from St Joe and Marian and are now sending them to Penn, New Prairie, and Edwardsburg, Michigan.

Hmm sounds similar to a situation here in Indy.

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3 hours ago, Trojan said:

If we're getting all of this out of the way this week, what will fill the thread next week?

I kinda feel bad for the Christians. Every game post turns into stuff not about football.  2nd and foremost I don’t care about free lunch or if someone thinks they have too many Mexicans in their school. I gotta go 

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