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This is a fantastic post in that at it's core tugs at our heart strings and at what all people worth their salt try to teach their kids. Unfortunately it doesn't apply in this case...not even in the slightest. I still can't wrap my head around intelligent people on this forum pretending they don't know what the P/P inherent advantages are. DT's article maybe didn't go down the best path to illustrate that, but neither does, "the rules are the rules", and you guys know that....all of you know that. It has nothing to do with "trying harder" or "government being in the way"....you guys all know that too. It's so simple at it's core and I'll say it again for the newbies: Given decent tradition, coaching etc. a P/P has more athletes per capita/enrollment just by nature of their institution type. That's it...that is all there is to it. I get it, it's nice to get that advantage along with tuition, but don't tell me I'm sending any kind of incorrect message to anyone (especially my kids) to call out that disparity.

The general notion of changing rules to make life harder on more successful people or organizations in order for less successful people or organizations to enjoy the illusion of “success” is pernicious and indefensible. There is no right way or good way to do it. In this piece, the excuse is Covid. When SF was put in, the excuse was something else. Once Covid is gone, the excuse will be something else still. If somebody doesn’t like their results, rather than lobbying to have rules changed to get more favorable results, just work within the rules to do so. Rather than complaining about more successful competitors, see what you can learn from them to match their success. The lesson that these sorts of proposals teach our kids is an awful one: if they aren’t succeeding as much as somebody else, it’s because the deck is stacked in favor of the succeeders and the way to remedy that is to stack the deck in favor of the non-succeeders. This is not how real life works. In fact, it’s the antithesis of how real life works.

I know I am kind of talking to myself here, but I could get on board with a 24 team class 6A as long as the tournament was seeded. Otherwise, I just cannot get behind the proposal knowing a team could go 0-9 or 1-8 and host a sectional championship. I provided a bracket earlier showing how last year's 6A tournament with 24 teams could have been arranged by taking two pods of 12 teams (North/South). Here are all three of the potential brackets depending on how you would want to split them up. Seeding determined by Sagarin ratings at the end of last years tournament because I cannot find what the ratings were after the regular season. In my opinion, 3 team sectionals are not great at all when it comes to matchups. I either like the potential for 4, 6-team Regionals or my previously shown 2, 12-team North/South split.

That's actually not true. Jesuit Dallas and Strake Jesuit in Houston are both UIL members. Also, in the Texas private/parochial league, there are about 230 teams playing ... about 2/3 of the state of Indiana's total football programs.

You have lost your damn mind.

Doing this might also be ripe for an Equal Protection challenge. Courts have found that state HS athletic associations, though technically private non-profits, are de facto state agencies. As such, they are generally bound by the same limitations as a formal state agency. The SF (as deeply flawed as it is) is safe from EP and DP challenges because it applies equally to everybody and is tied to actual historical performance — ie, not who you are, but what you’ve done. When the law treats different people or entities differently because of who they are, rather than what they’ve done, it gets on thin legal ice very quickly.

I admit that my liking the matchups as a reason for preferring the SF is a selfish one (and certainly not much of a reason for it initially)….I just like watching the Best v. the Best whenever possible and I have certainly seen that in many cases due to the SF. More realistically, I simply think the SF (for all its flaws) is clearly the fairest approach. Bumping EVERY private/parochial in EVERY class in EVERY sport because of the success of a handful of schools in any specific sport VS bumping a SINGLE school in a SINGLE class for its success in a SINGLE sport is the only reasonable solution. Moving up every school is tantamount to using a shotgun when a scalpel will suffice.

So, when the current group of “5A” schools had their own special carve out to win a State Championship in the new 5A there was “new life” breathed into them? The reality was that other than Snider (who had played in the original 5A Championship a couple of years prior and was already a legit power) the NEW 5A patient was DOA. Bumped up 4A schools who already knew how to play football have owned 5A. Redrawing the lines doesn’t improve play. It has to self-develop within the schools and communities.

I alway enjoy “Harrison Bergeron” references…..even when indirect.

Actually, programs like Gibson Southern are a great example of what I’m talking about. It’s a genuinely elite football program - and it’s a public school. Nick has put together a fantastic feeder program and a culture that has bred a consistent level of success. Has he done it alone? Not at all. He inherited something good and made it even better - and had the support and buy-in of parents, administrators, the kids, etc. FTR, if you read my post more carefully, you’ll note a couple things. First, it’s not emotional. I don’t know where you’re getting this “heartstrings” thing. I assure you, I’m not a heartstrings guy. What I wrote was a hard and undeniable truth of life: you don’t make yourself better by seeking to hold others back simply because you don’t like that they have succeeded more than you have. Second, I spoke nothing to advantages and such. I neither touted nor denied them. And that’s because I just don’t think reality is that simple. Anybody who wants to go looking for inherent advantages or disadvantages, in order to complain about results, could find them. I think it’s an advantage that you guys have a B10 quarterback under center and the rest of us in the area don’t. That doesn’t mean it would ever even occur to me to try to screw with rules in some kind of perverse effort to “level the playing field.” GS also has an abundant supply of strong-as-oxes farm kids year after year. Trust me, it’s not the norm where I’m from — and it sure would be nice to have. But it’s no reason for me to try to throw bombs in your path, just because your program enjoys that benefit of being a rural school with many kids who have done physical labor since they could walk. No, I’m not talking about advantages and disadvantages. I’m talking about teaching a bad lesson to kids: that their destinies are largely the result of chance and a stacked deck that could (and should) be stacked differently to achieve parity in outcomes. The first fault with that is the belief that equality in outcomes is something that should even be sought. The second fault with that is that our economy simply isn’t built that way. Competition is hard and other guys are going to have advantages and disadvantages. The earlier kids can learn that reality, the better for everybody.

Does 5A need changed? I thought we already changed 5A with the implementation of a 6th class. No? And to be fair it doesn't sound like you're trying to change 5A, it sounds like you want to change the fortunes of a handful of schools. Big difference.

Bishop Luers and Adams Central are pretty good. Maybe put them all in the same class? IF you have DOUBLE the enrollment of your counterpart, THEN you have a higher likelihood of having success against that opponent. Why is this so hard? It's why we have classes in the first place. It sounds to me like you want to go back to a three class system or even just one. Are you an attorney? You're going to hold on to your stance no matter what math and common sense says.

Agree. I think 4 regionals of 6 teams would be fine for 6A

If a school of 4000 and a school of 2000 have the same work ethic from the coaches to the players, the bigger school wins 9 out of 10. Whatever Eric Moore is doing at Center Grove, he could do it better at Carmel.

I LOVE the movie, and thought MLB did a phenomenal job with this. The setting was perfect. I think it was on par with hockey doing their outdoor games. It's unique...fans love it and the players look forward to it as well.

Negative Ghostrider....they had to win all season to get there....not just about 2 or 3 wins. Kind of interesting....for people pushing for a supposed increase of a trophy chance for some teams by pushing them to a lower division, this proposal had no problem taking sectional titles away from the top class

Yes we should be good as long as we don't get hit with the Covid bus again. 95% of our team was quarantined due to Covid positives so we weren't going to have enough practices to play game 1 against Oldenburg (team just got back today actually)

103.3 The Fix in Santa Claus/Rockport, Ind. broadcasts Heritage Hills and South Spencer games. Here's our 2021 schedule... PS. Broadcastsport, please note the streaming info at the bottom of the attachement. Thanks!

It's not an enrollment problem. Never has been. Two best teams in the HCC this year were also the two smallest enrollment schools. Both made it to their respective state finals.

Here are the sectional alignments from last year with how each of the schools rank in the state in enrollment. I did not see Elkhart's so I added their consolidated enrollments and they came in about 10th-ish. Sectional 1: Crown Point (12), Laf Jeff (27), Merrillville (25), Lake Central (6), Winner: Merrillville (25) Sectional 2: Chesterton (28), Elkhart (10th-ish) , Penn (6), Portage (19), Winner: Elkhart (10) Sectional 3: Snider (39), Homestead (20) Carroll (21), Warsaw (26th) Winner: Homestead (20) Sectional 4: Fishers (5th), HSE (9th), Noblesville (11th), Westfield (22), Winner: Westfield (22) Sectional 5: Avon (10), Brownsburg (13), Carmel (1), Pike (8), Winner: Carmel (1) Sectional 6: Ben Davis (2), Perry Meridian (18), Southport (24), Tech (15), Winner: Ben Davis (2) Sectional 7: Lawrence Central (23), Lawrence North (16), North Central (4), Warren Central (3), Winner: Warren Central (3) Sectional 8: Franklin Central (14), Columbus East (62), Columbus North (28), Center Grove (17), Winner: Center Grove (17) After looking at this, there's only a FEW teams that have a legit gripe about enrollment in their sectional: 1. Chesterton (They lost to a 1A school and 4A school by enrollment-albeit two quality programs) They would not win in a class below them. 2. Westfield (They made it to the 6A State championship, beating #11, #5, #20, #25 (enrollments) in the tournament) 3. Perry (They won 1 game in a 4A-5A conference, they would not win a class below them) 4. Southport (They have won 2 sectionals in the past 10 years, losing to CG in Regionals each time. They have a respectable record over the last 10 years but would probably lose to Decatur, Plainfield, Cathedral, New Pal in sectionals each year.) 5. Tech (Socio-economic factors will make them an afterthought and would not win anything in a class below them) 6. Success Factor Teams (C-East & Snider)

Here is one issue I have with the proposal of potentially moving 6A to a class of 24 teams... No matter WHO the teams are, a 24 team bracket means you would have 8, 3-team sectionals with 1 team in each sectional having a bye directly into the sectional championship. The ONLY way I would even get remotely on board with something like this is if the sectionals were seeded, allowing the top team to have that bye and be guaranteed the home game for sectional championship. As well, the second highest team would host the first round game. At least give some reward to the teams who have a better seasons. You could even do 4, 6-team regionals and seed them appropriately. I know this isn't the best model per se - but who says no to this tournament example? (using Sagarin ratings from the end of the tournament - I couldn't find the ratings from the end of the regular season. Obviously, you could use some other sort of ranking system)

How do you know any of the said eight programs other than Merrillville are buying into that concept? I don't see any of their representatives on here touting what is being offered. Most coaches will simply say "we play where the IHSAA asks us to play." DT has offered a great proposal for the IHSAA to consider. In the end, they will decide.

A point to clarify, at least here in Northeast Indiana, I don't know of any schools that remained completely in person throughout the pandemic. I would add to that the number of covid cases among students was higher in wealthier schools private and public, than they were in urban or rural schools. I am not drawing any conclusions, but felt that info was important to note.

I'm still in the discussion, just not necessarily with him. I can't help someone who doesn't understand that a team of 4000 has an advantage over a team of 2000. We all know Catholic schools have an advantage, so it's hard to take them seriously on the issue of enrollment. Minus eight.

"In loco parentis" is a phrase I have heard from a number of government school administrators over the years. It's one of their primary justifications for zero tolerance policies, mass indoctrination, etc.

The whole point of introducing a new 6A in 2013 was to give the lowest 32 teams of the old 5A a playing field of their own, yet that isn't what happened at all. ALL 5A State Champions and Runners-Up since the New 5A (starting in 2013) 2013 & 2014: Cathedral (4A Enrollment) vs Westfield and LaPorte 2015: Fort Wayne Snider (Historically great program) vs New Pal (4A Enrollment) 2016: Westfield (2nd largest school in 5A at the time) vs Columbus East 2017: Columbus East (Historically great program AND one of the lowest enrollments in 5A at the time) vs Kokomo 2018 & 2019: New Pal (4A Enrollment) vs Decatur Central and Valpo (Who made it to semistate in 6A and should have beat Carmel several years ago) 2020: Cathedral (4A Enrollment) vs Zionsville (6A school playing in 5A who WON a sectional in 6A in 2019) Of the 16 state finalists since the new 5A, I see ONLY three teams that legitimately benefitted from this new classification (LaPorte, Kokomo, Decatur Central). Magically bumping down the "Forgotten 8" won't make them become elite programs in 5A. The ELITE programs of 4A and 5A will keep dominating and winning 5A state titles. Don't water down the competition because your team doesn't have the necessary support to field championship-winning football teams, like Cathedral/New Pal/Westfield/East/Snider or able to compete with the big boys and win trophies in 6A (Valpo, Zionsville).

You pass Go in the game of Checkers?

Couldn't agree more. Parents should not "co-parent" with the government.

Only 4A team to play within 3TDs of Roncalli last season. They were really impacted by Covid in the post season at RB and lost the Fike (sp?) kid early in the season. Always a strong team. Going to go watch them when they play at Roncalli.

I’m indifferent. I will say that 6A is pretty damn boring and football is the ultimate numbers game. I do like to see fresh blood. I’m intrigued by the idea but that’s as far as I’ll go.

I heard it was purchased by the owner of 10 West.

One problem here is the size of the class. A 24-team Class 6A would give eight teams a first round bye and just a four-game path t the title, right? I'd rather see the 32-team Class 6A stay as it is than give 6A teams byes. Class 5A shold be 64 teams. The first round byes should be in the enrollment-challenged Class 1A schools. They have many two-way players and very small rosters. Class 1A should be 32 teams and 5A should be 64.

We need to get this thread to the longest thread ever with 1 million views.. I say we keep it 🙂.

Snider and Dwenger being in the same sectional is an epic first time event, and contrary to Dwenger/Luers and Snider/Northrop............Snider vs Dwenger is the biggest and best rivalry in Fort Wayne. And it has been for what's going on it's fifth decade. I think there is a "presumption" that they will meet..........just no guarantee.