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Earlier in the week, @Bobref started a thread titled "Sectional Draw 2023" and the thread kind of went a couple directions away from the intended purpose. One of those directions pertained to the notion that 6A and 1A should be the classifications with 32 teams rather than 6A and 5A. This topic interested me, and I decided to take a deep dive researching it. It took me about ten hours total over the course of several days to compile. I'm not saying this to get a pat on the back, but to help you understand I didn't just breeze through it without any deep thought or research. Nevertheless, for this particular scenario, I compiled lists for 1A through 5A using the most recent enrollment numbers the IHSAA released (which was two years ago). I excluded 6A since it obviously wouldn't be affected by the change. In compiling the classification lists, the goal was to base it off this specific year's tournament in regard to the Fort Wayne Dwenger situation and the teams playing up due to the success factor. The 1A through 5A breakdown for this year's tournament is the following: 5A - 31 teams 4A - 64 teams 3A - 64 teams 2A - 62 teams 1A - 58 teams Total - 279 teams I wanted to keep these numbers as similar as possible. This meant that 5A would have 63 teams rather than 64 as a result of the IHSAA moving FW Dwenger down in the middle of the classification period. Therefore, these were the classification numbers I came up with: 5A - 63 teams 4A - 64 teams 3A - 64 teams 2A - 56 teams 1A - 32 teams Total - 279 teams After compiling lists for the classifications, I wanted to look at the ranges for each classification from the largest school to the smallest school. See below. 5A (63 teams) Largest School: Harrison (WL) - 2,079 students Smallest School: New Haven - 1,064 students 4A (64 teams) Largest School: Kankakee Valley - 1,062 students Smallest School (aside from the success factor team): Bellmont - 641 students Success Factor Team: Evansville Memorial - 556 students 3A (64 teams) Largest School: John Glenn - 638 students Smallest Schools: North Putnam and Tell City - 444 students 2A (56 teams) Largest School: Indianapolis Scecina - 439 students Smallest School: Covington - 294 students Success Factor Team: Lafayette Central Catholic - 296 students 1A (32 teams) Largest School: Fremont - 291 students Smallest School: Attica - 170 students Here are the ranges from the scenario above compared to the current numbers (excluding success factor teams): 5A: 1,064 - 2,079 (currently 1,513 - 2,079) 4A: 641 - 1,062 (currently 795 - 1,510) 3A: 444 - 638 (currently 511 - 790) 2A: 294 - 439 (currently 379 - 510) 1A: 170 - 291 (currently 170 - 378) Instead of just compiling a list of classifications given the scenario, I wanted to get the full scope of what this could look like as it pertains to sectional assignments. As a result, I put together classification maps and spent a ton of time trying to come up with sectional assignments that limit travel time as best as possible while also ensuring schools from the same school district aren't split up. I cannot stress enough how hard I tried to keep travel times down. I flirted with many different scenarios by looking at the travel times on Google Maps but some long trips just couldn't be helped. It's important to note I'm only including these sectional assignments to give you an idea of how 1A through 5A could look given the hypothetical 32 team 1A scenario. I'm not necessarily saying this is how they should look. See the link below to view the classification/sectional assignment maps. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1SqvN_8IxXWiJQxvs4E0RSxadUGh_f9k&usp=sharing Here are the sectional assignments I came up with. 5A (63) Sectional 9 (8): East Chicago Central, Gary West, Hammond Central, Hammond Morton, Harrison (WL), Lowell, McCutcheon, Munster Sectional 10 (8): Chesterton, Hobart, LaPorte, Merrillville, Michigan City, Mishawaka, South Bend Adams, Valparaiso Sectional 11 (8): Columbia City, Concord, Goshen, Huntington North, Kokomo, Logansport, Northridge, Plymouth Sectional 12 (7): DeKalb, Fort Wayne North, Fort Wayne Snider, Fort Wayne South, Fort Wayne Wayne, Muncie Central, New Haven Sectional 13 (8): Anderson, Greenfield-Central, Indianapolis Attucks, Indianapolis Roncalli, Mt. Vernon (Fortville), New Palestine, Pendleton Heights, Richmond Sectional 14 (8): Columbus East, East Central, Franklin, Greenwood, Jennings County, Seymour, Shelbyville, Whiteland Sectional 15 (8): Bloomington North, Bloomington South, Decatur Central, Martinsville, Mooresville, Plainfield, Terre Haute North, Terre Haute South Sectional 16 (8): Bedford North Lawrence, Castle, Evansville Central, Evansville Harrison, Evansville North, Evansville Reitz, Floyd Central, New Albany 4A (64) Sectional 17 (8): Hanover Central, Highland, Kankakee Valley, New Prairie, South Bend Clay, South Bend Riley, South Bend St. Joseph, South Bend Washington Sectional 18 (8): Angola, Culver Academy, East Noble, Leo, Mishawaka Marian, NorthWood, Wawasee, West Noble Sectional 19 (8): Bellmont, Delta, Fort Wayne Dwenger, Jay County, Marion, Mississinewa, Norwell, Yorktown Sectional 20 (8): Frankfort, Guerin Catholic, Hamilton Heights, Lebanon, Peru, Twin Lakes, Western, West Lafayette Sectional 21 (8): Brebeuf Jesuit, Crawfordsville, Danville, Edgewood, Indianapolis Shortridge, Indianapolis Washington, Northview, Owen Valley Sectional 22 (8): Batesville, Beech Grove, Connersville, Franklin County, Greensburg, Indianapolis Chatard, New Castle, Rushville Sectional 23 (8): Charlestown, Corydon Central, Lawrenceburg, Madison, North Harrison, Scottsburg, Silver Creek, South Dearborn Sectional 24 (8): Boonville, Evansville Bosse, Evansville Memorial, Gibson Southern, Jasper, Mt. Vernon (Posey), Vincennes Lincoln, Washington 3A (64) Sectional 25 (8): Benton Central, Boone Grove, Calumet, Griffith, Hammond Noll, Rensselaer Central, River Forest, Whiting Sectional 26 (8): Bremen, Fairfield, Jimtown, John Glenn, Knox, Lakeland, Rochester, Tippecanoe Valley Sectional 27 (8): Bluffton, Fort Wayne Concordia, Fort Wayne Luers, Garrett, Heritage, Manchester, Wabash, Woodlan Sectional 28 (8): Alexandria-Monroe, Blackford, Eastbrook, Eastern (Greentown), Maconaquah, Northwestern, Oak Hill, Tipton Sectional 29 (8): Greencastle, North Montgomery, North Putnam, Southmont, South Vermillion, Tri-West, Western Boone, West Vigo Sectional 30 (8): Centerville, Christel House Manual, Frankton, Heritage Christian, Indianapolis Ritter, Lapel, Purdue Polytechnic, Speedway Sectional 31 (8): Brown County, Brownstown Central, Cascade, Indian Creek, Mitchell, Monrovia, Salem, Triton Central Sectional 32 (8): Evansville Mater Dei, Heritage Hills, North Posey, Pike Central, Princeton, Southridge, Sullivan, Tell City 2A (56) Sectional 33 (8): Andrean, Lake Station, LaVille, North Judson, North Newton, South Central (Union Mills), Wheeler, Winamac Sectional 34 (7): Adams Central, Central Noble, Churubusco, Eastside, Prairie Heights, South Adams, Whitko Sectional 35 (8): Carroll (Flora), Clinton Prairie, Covington, Delphi, Lafayette Central Catholic, Lewis Cass, Pioneer, Seeger Sectional 36 (6): Elwood, Madison-Grant, Monroe Central, Sheridan, Taylor, Winchester Sectional 37 (6): Covenant Christian, Eastern Hancock, Indianapolis Scecina, Knightstown, Park Tudor, Shenandoah Sectional 38 (6): Hagerstown, Milan, North Decatur, Northeastern, Switzerland County, Union County Sectional 39 (7): Cloverdale, Eastern Greene, Linton-Stockton, North Knox, Parke Heritage, Riverton Parke, South Putnam Sectional 40 (8): Clarksville, Crawford County, Eastern (Pekin), Forest Park, Paoli, Perry Central, Providence, South Spencer 1A (32) Sectional 41 (4): Bowman Academy, Frontier, South Newton, Tri-County Sectional 42 (4): Culver, North White, Triton, West Central Sectional 43 (4): Caston, Clinton Central, North Miami, Tri-Central Sectional 44 (4): Fremont, Northfield, Southern Wells, Southwood Sectional 45 (4): Cambridge City Lincoln, Tri, Union City, Wes-Del Sectional 46 (4): Edinburgh, Indianapolis Lutheran, Indianapolis Tindley, South Decatur Sectional 47 (4): Attica, Fountain Central, North Central (Farmersburg), North Vermillion Sectional 48 (4): North Daviess, Springs Valley, Tecumseh, West Washington I hope you all find this information as interesting as I did. Does this information change your original opinion? Should 5A remain at 32 teams or should 1A have 32 teams instead? Feel free to provide your thoughts and share any ideas you have.

I think you seed it and let everyone in. I know there are challenges but I think all in all it is better than a blind draw. We’d do it in wrestling with every weight class. No reason you can’t do it in football.

A few thoughts for the league... -Wagner gets my vote for POY. Simply put, he did more with less. I know Bosse only finished 3-6, but QB #1 for Lincoln got the nod in 2022 on a squad that was only 4-5...(and I believe that young man is about to prove his worth all over again as we move through the sectional). -No nonsense this time around for Reitz/Boonville Part 2. Panthers will boat race the Pioneers on Friday. Past that...BNL/Jasper/Memorial will certainly have something to say, but ultimately it seems Reitz v EC is inevitable. -MD will still find their way out of Sectional 40. I saw the better version of this group back in Week 3 (hard to believe that was 6 weeks ago), and they made another statement on Friday. NP will be a tough challenge, but I like the Wildcats at The Bowl. -I really want to pick North to come out of 16 despite a tough road match-up at Floyd..because they can be that good. But I trust Castle more, and the Knights got the favorable draw with the championship game in Paradise. -VL knows their path..and it starts with a revenge tour at Owen Valley (who defeated VL and GS a year ago)

Our blood enemies have been vanquished. Always nice to send those punks back to La La Land with their tails tucked between their legs. Now, use this as a springboard to finish the season strong. We’ve got several items on the agenda, and the one I am most looking forward to is wiping that smug expression off Dabo’s face in a few weeks.

So if I’m understanding this correctly, you believe there was a little 3A school called Heritage Hills and this strength coach pumped them into a state caliber team….and all of this happened in the last few years? Is that about the gist of it?

I’ve mentioned this before. A bye week could really help out these smaller schools that have multiple 2 way players, smaller rosters, and limited resources in some situations. Most 5A schools have all 1 way players and lots of resources. I wish the IFCA would present this to the IHSAA!

There you go… if we all agreed around here, it would be an awfully boring place !

What an ignorant comment. Running clock doesn't start until the 2H and North had their backups and JV by the end of the 1Q. They didn't even play a few of their best players. Central is THAT bad look what we did to them with our backups. Multiple INTS and special teams miscues let these games get that out of hand.

That's an impressive W.

Not really a reason to move them out, IMO. SF would take care of them in a two-year span anyway ... if not before as Lutheran's headed to current 2A anyway via SF. That way, you just let things play themselves out via the guidelines. Realistically, there's very little chance that Lutheran would slide back down to 1A in this scenario anyway if SF stays in place ... small chance they would head back down to 1A under the current organization too unless the IHSAA gets cute and sticks them in the same sectional with LCC ala Chatard - Roncalli. LCC wouldn't likely be coming down even under a 32-team 1A scenario. They are currently, without a 32-team 1A ranked around #38. With SF, LCC's likely to stay up in 2A, even under the proposed sectional scheme, with Carroll being the current spoiler to take them out of acquiring the two points needed to stay. Again, even without SF, LCC would be 2A, under the proposed scheme, by enrollment. Very nice work on this!

So I will take on the project (for fun) of seeding all of the teams according to their current calpreps overall state ranking. I’ll then post the hypothetical brackets according to @Frozen Tundra’s work from above. If I feel extra goofy I’ll run the games through their matchup predictor and post results for each round of the playoffs. Sectionals on Monday, Regionals on Tuesday, semi state on Wed and State on Thursday. I should have the seeded brackets up tonight

Great work @Frozen Tundra Love seeing posters dig into things like this here. This was actually a plan under consideration when we expanded to 6 classes. While the raw numbers look significant in what was 5A at the time, the math showed the greatest disparity in enrollment numbers was actually in 1A. I don’t know of an answer as to why it did not happen though.

So now who has a contact at the IHSAA and can share this with them? Outstanding work, btw

The pressure will definitely be on NP at the Bowl in R2. I suspect if you switch the schedules they both are about at the same place as the other. MD faced much tougher opponents week to week and was very competitive with Reitz, who is far better than anybody NP has played. MD should be licking their chops to finally play some 2A schools.

If you put money on him in Vegas to win the Heisman, you’re kicking yourself. He went from -110 to +2200 overnight. Might be worth a flier at that price.

yeah Bob Clayton and Gaddis were household names. Great examples of when good coaches step down the impacts it has on programs.

Happy to see the Irish offense start to click late in the season heading into playoffs....hanging 38 points on Center Grove (most points they allowed all season) something positive heading into sectionals but worried too about pass defense. Good news is we pretty much have two weeks (no offense to North Central) but LN/LC will be no easy task before facing either Ben Davis / Brownsburg. Gotta take it one game at a time!

Also.. nice job! Thinking Heritage Hills would like it... Gibson Southern ... not so much... 🤔

I'd bet a million dollars Brownsburg can't beat Center Grove in the Semi-State round.

If I had a million bucks to bet, 6a is absolutely not where I'm betting it

I bet most of the people reading this don’t know what you’re talking about. … But I do.

My oh my team is North Side. Total train wreck going on there from lack of discipline, no accountability, complete disrespect of the officials, and a total embarrassment to the Fort Wayne community

I believe that college football needs to go to a relegation league like soccer in England. These type of mismatches serve no purpose for anyone

I really do appreciate the guys who officiate these games. Without them, I can't sit in the stands and watch football and complain about it on a message board. Lol.

Honestly, I have a lot of respect for Chatard. A friend of mine from Crown Point married a Chatard girl and I've learned through her and her friends that Chatard really is a family. Her brother played for St Pius X and was a really good DB for Chatard. I get it now. That's a really good point about Chatard and Roncalli that I hadn't thought of. And I agree with your thoughts on the success factor. I really hate the way our Tournaments are formatted. It just sucks. And I'm not talking about how the 2 clear best teams in a Sectional can meet int the 1st round. I'm talking about how we can go weeks with just crappy slates of games. No offense to teams that fit that criteria, but when I turn on a Regional Championship I don't want to see .500 team because their Sectional was weak and not because they upset someone big. Here's the format I would prefer: Solves the problem of those who want an all-in format and those who want to seed. All In Format: Sectionals: Split teams into North/South buckets Identify teams (pick a percent of total in large area) in Central Indiana that are on a “borderline” The borderline can float North or South depending upon the geographic locations of the teams making up a Class Split borderline teams in half and have them rotate between North and South bracket on a yearly basis as long as they remain in the same Class the following year Figure out a set of rules if the above creates uneven brackets Seed the North bracket and then seed the South bracket Higher seed is home and then switch to current location rules This helps or hurts a poorly (both directions) seeded team. The Visiting team has the option of picking a neutral location if the Home team’s field is greater than a certain mileage distance from the visiting team. Regionals: Re-Seed the remaining 8 teams taking Sectional results into consideration Higher seed is home The Visiting team has the option of picking a neutral location if the Home team’s field is greater than a certain mileage distance from the visiting team. Semi-State: Re-Seed the remaining 4 teams taking Regional results into consideration Visiting team travels no matter how far the location Stat Finals: Should be an entertaining game

The question is “who is #65 pushing?” From the replay, it looks like he was in contact with the tackler. No foul.

I should have explained it better, was a little bit tired last night. But if you are up 42-0 after the 1Q, just run the ball with the backups in…

Speaking for this fan (and I suspect many others), they’re (Chatard) not satisfied but, unfortunately, they will always play where the IHSAA assigns. Catholics are big on rules…I’m not one, btw….but I’m big on rules too. As regards that (and I’ve said this 1000 times….now 1001), the IHSAA is waaay to cute about always pairing Chatard and Roncalli in 4A Sectionals (as they would always pair Cathedral/Roncalli when they were in 4A). Historically, Chatard and Roncalli are almost perfectly .500 against one another BUT splitting Sectional victories sends Chatard back to 3A. The fact is, even in a REALLY down year, Chatard is almost always going to be a Top 5-10 4A team….yet they are also generally going to split Sectional Championships generally with Roncalli (at best). Which will always send them back to 3A. Thanks IHSAA. To fix this I’d suggest two simple “fixes”. One is a rules change as to the Success Factor and the other is a “pairing” problem. 1. Stop constantly pairing Chatard and Roncalli in Sectional. I know it’s a vicarious groin thrill for most when Catholics knock each other out but, in the end, it really screws up 3A. BTW, very few talk about Evansville Memorial (who has kicked @ss in 4A but is bumped 3A) but they, to a degree, are part of the 3A Catholic “problem” (you can thank me later @tango) …..I’m pretty certain Chatard has never beaten Memorial…at least in my lifetime. 2. Change the Success Factor point requirements for bumped teams to simply need 1 point to stay “up”. That by itself might solve the “Chatard” problem (but it’s also a Memorial problem) in 3A….but I guarantee you’d solve it by not always pairing them with Roncalli in conjunction with changing it from 1 point to stay up a class. ——————————————————————————————————————— Back to 4A generally being superior to 5A 70% of the time. Many here seem to be simpatico with the idea that East Central (with their stylish mullets and their handsome girlfriend-stealing southeast Indiana looks….much like a young Lysander back in the day with his Butch-wax crew cut) would have cruised through 5A last year and possibly, scared the Hell out of 6A this year. I’m a little amazed that some here, though, up until East Central BARELY EDGED out Roncalli in Playoffs (after losing to them in the regular season)seem to forget that Roncalli had a MAC-sized line and arguably the best North/South RB in the State (the kid was robbed btw as regards State awards) and was assumed to have rolled through 4A and the late DT (I can only assume this to be the case given his absence) had Roncalli as a 6A challenger. The survivor of EC/Roncalli would have rolled through 5A. I’m fully signed on with @Rodney about that. Heck, DT, before his unfortunate apparent passing had one of them challenging for 6A (Roncalli).

Officially everyone is tied for second so I typed it at random. All five went 2-2 against each other so no head to head tiebreaker anyway

Think there’s been good points made on both sides here. Some thoughts: - Only Chatard in 3A could be a consistent contender in 5A. This does not make 3A as a whole better than 5A. 5A as a whole is much better than 3A and I would argue that this year and last year 3A was actually very weak outside of Chatard. - East Central would win 5A this year. No other 4A team would as I believe the class is actually pretty weak outside of EC. Last year you had 3 teams (EC, New Pal, Roncalli) that could’ve won 5A. However I don’t think you can say however that since the inception of the sixth class 4A has been better than 5A overall. Most years 5A I would say was better. If you look at the history, the two teams that have played for 5A state have been better than the two teams that have played for 4A state nearly every single year. - Cathedral/New Pal dominance in 5A is hard to look at as a knock on 5A when those teams were some of the very best in the entire state those years. - There is a significant jump in competition from 5A to 6A that is the largest between any two classes. 5A is a lot closer to 4A than 6A. This is why you’ve seen 4A teams bump up and still do well and mediocre 6A bump down and make long runs.

Go Wildkats. Go Cougars.