6A Tournament Discussion

[BLACKGOLD2007]

On 10/30/2024 at 10:46 PM, Komets2727 said:

I see Snider winning somewhere around 24 -10 type of game. I really think that Snider will be the best defense Elkhart has seen all year while Snider has seen Warren Central and Carroll defenses that are head and shoulders better than Elkhart. Just like most games, turnovers could be the equalizer for Elkhart. I think Elkhart has to get a defensive touchdown and have at least 3 Snider turnovers as well to win, which could be possible. 

I watched video on Elkhart and they seem to be susceptible to a good passing team, unfortunately Snider is not that so this could be lower scoring than 24-10. I struggle to see how Elkhart is going to move the ball on Snider. You had a first hand view of Elkhart when they played Penn and I watched quite a bit of video of that game, what are your thoughts?
 

Penn allowed them to move the ball, but the D held firm and special teams kept points off the board as well. If Penn doesn't fumble that punt, I think Penn wins that game 3-0. It was bad in the second half. Both teams were strong on the defensive side of the ball...but Penn's O is well pretty dismal when it needs to perform or come up clutch. 

I think Penn and Elkhart are at the bottom tier when it comes to potential to make a run. 

[BLACKGOLD2007]

1 hour ago, psaboy said:

That's correct. I expect a good game, but think the Lions come out on top by a score or two, still thinking around 6 to 10 point margin. 

I just cannot fathom them generating the O to score....when they could barely do it against Penn...Now if Snider gifts them a short field or two, sure...But, I am still the I wont believe until I actually see the final score with Elkhart over Snider...and still wont go around singing their praises unless they beat Carroll soundly. 

[FastpacedO]

30 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

Penn admin needs to see this info and be ashamed of it. 

THERE IS NO REASON a 6A blue blood should be playing such a crap schedule and be 7-2....two losses to local teams....it makes me want to throw up.  (I know you have similar thoughts, just venting into the void)

Please do excuse my ignorance. In no way do I intend to back-up Penn admins. How does the conference stack up in other sports like basketball, baseball, Softball etc. I know it is very easy to only look at optics of football with these conferences. In football the conference may not be great may be very strong in other sports. Just something to be mindful of. Don't get me wrong I get your frustration and  sentiment.

I will say being in a conference makes scheduling a lot easier than not. Center Grove and Carmel have got a good taste of the difficulties in scheduling when not in a conference the last couple of years.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

12 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Please do excuse my ignorance. In no way do I intend to back-up Penn admins. How does the conference stack up in other sports like basketball, baseball, Softball etc. I know it is very easy to only look at optics of football with these conferences. In football the conference may not be great may be very strong in other sports. Just something to be mindful of. Don't get me wrong I get your frustration and  sentiment.

I will say being in a conference makes scheduling a lot easier than not. Center Grove and Carmel have got a good taste of the difficulties in scheduling when not in a conference the last couple of years.

NIC schools like Penn, St. Joe, Marian and the South Bend Schools do well in various sports. 

Penn has had a strong showing when it comes to the none football sports this fall. The issue with the NIC is that these programs are performing despite the conference's limitations. NIC teams already play a heavy Region and Fort Wayne schedule outside of conference...Now that will change some because in baseball and basketball the in conference games have changed. Dikos (Penn's baseball coach) has already complained about the changes to the baseball schedule. 

I don't think Penn's best bet is going independent in football only....I think they should petition the DAC and see if they will take Penn in, if they don't....I would then reach out to similar sized schools in our area and Fort Wayne and see if organizing a new conference with them is a possibility...I would explore those options before trying to go Independent...But, if Penn went that route...you now have two Indy schools that would want to play Penn each year moving forward....Almost a guaranteed win for both schools at this point. 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

NIC schools like Penn, St. Joe, Marian and the South Bend Schools do well in various sports. 

Penn has had a strong showing when it comes to the none football sports this fall. The issue with the NIC is that these programs are performing despite the conference's limitations. NIC teams already play a heavy Region and Fort Wayne schedule outside of conference...Now that will change some because in baseball and basketball the in conference games have changed. Dikos (Penn's baseball coach) has already complained about the changes to the baseball schedule. 

I don't think Penn's best bet is going independent in football only....I think they should petition the DAC and see if they will take Penn in, if they don't....I would then reach out to similar sized schools in our area and Fort Wayne and see if organizing a new conference with them is a possibility...I would explore those options before trying to go Independent...But, if Penn went that route...you now have two Indy schools that would want to play Penn each year moving forward....Almost a guaranteed win for both schools at this point. 

Penn in the SAC's large division would be pretty legit as long as Penn doesn't mind traveling to Fort Wayne four times per year. 

[US31]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Please do excuse my ignorance. In no way do I intend to back-up Penn admins. How does the conference stack up in other sports like basketball, baseball, Softball etc. I know it is very easy to only look at optics of football with these conferences. In football the conference may not be great may be very strong in other sports. Just something to be mindful of. Don't get me wrong I get your frustration and  sentiment.

I will say being in a conference makes scheduling a lot easier than not. Center Grove and Carmel have got a good taste of the difficulties in scheduling when not in a conference the last couple of years.

Keep in mind, due to the number and structure of contests, your "conference" does not have as large an effect on your schedule outside of football.

• Football has 9 regular season games, if you are in an 8 team conference...you have two non-conf games.  Thats it.
• Some sports compete in a vareity of Invite/Tourney formats....lots of opportunity to compete against state wide talent. (XC, Wrestling, Track, etc)
• Some sports may have 20+ regular season contests....a lot more opportunity for non-conf competition. (Baseball, Basketball, Volleyball, etc)

A bad conference set up CAN have a more significant impact on your football program than most other sports.

[RegionFBFan]

1 hour ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

NIC schools like Penn, St. Joe, Marian and the South Bend Schools do well in various sports. 

Penn has had a strong showing when it comes to the none football sports this fall. The issue with the NIC is that these programs are performing despite the conference's limitations. NIC teams already play a heavy Region and Fort Wayne schedule outside of conference...Now that will change some because in baseball and basketball the in conference games have changed. Dikos (Penn's baseball coach) has already complained about the changes to the baseball schedule. 

I don't think Penn's best bet is going independent in football only....I think they should petition the DAC and see if they will take Penn in, if they don't....I would then reach out to similar sized schools in our area and Fort Wayne and see if organizing a new conference with them is a possibility...I would explore those options before trying to go Independent...But, if Penn went that route...you now have two Indy schools that would want to play Penn each year moving forward....Almost a guaranteed win for both schools at this point. 

As discussed before, Penn would be a great fit into the DAC. Travel distance would be shorter than FW Summit with LC and CP being the furthest at 90 minutes. One issue that is often overlooked though and mentioned often by Coach Nowlin at RC is the time change. Penn in EST and DAC in CST. It may not be as big an issue for football but it might be for all other sports that play mid week schedules.

[kabookieman2007]

DAC for Penn on paper might seem like a good fit, but as mentioned the time change cant be ignored, the kids likely wouldnt be back home before midnight on a gameday; not horrible on a Friday but exhausting if its a Tuesday baseball or basketball game. Not to mention the travel cost and risk, how many winter basketball games would be canceled or have almost no away team attendance because travelling on 80/90 and US 20 or even US 6 is downright dangerous sometimes in the winter. Then you get into the rescheduling or all together lost games; no one wants that. 

Ft. Wayne is no better except for the time zone. Their is good competition in this area; Penn just needs to get over itself and seek out competition closer to home. The NLC has plenty of schools that are lightyears ahead of SB schools with enthusiastic fan bases that care about their teams. Also in the NIC, being split into two divisions like it is kind of deprives other schools of opportunities. I guarantee you Jimtown (another historically significant team), or Northwood could give Penn a better game than most SB schools. Just look at Mishawaka's record in the NLC, they have done well but they have also been beat, just like Warsaw another 6A team. 

Bottom line I think Penn needs to look closer to home and find meaningful games outside of St. Joe County, but less than an hour away. Just my opinion.

[RocksFan23]

27 minutes ago, kabookieman2007 said:

DAC for Penn on paper might seem like a good fit, but as mentioned the time change cant be ignored, the kids likely wouldnt be back home before midnight on a gameday; not horrible on a Friday but exhausting if its a Tuesday baseball or basketball game. Not to mention the travel cost and risk, how many winter basketball games would be canceled or have almost no away team attendance because travelling on 80/90 and US 20 or even US 6 is downright dangerous sometimes in the winter. Then you get into the rescheduling or all together lost games; no one wants that. 

Ft. Wayne is no better except for the time zone. Their is good competition in this area; Penn just needs to get over itself and seek out competition closer to home. The NLC has plenty of schools that are lightyears ahead of SB schools with enthusiastic fan bases that care about their teams. Also in the NIC, being split into two divisions like it is kind of deprives other schools of opportunities. I guarantee you Jimtown (another historically significant team), or Northwood could give Penn a better game than most SB schools. Just look at Mishawaka's record in the NLC, they have done well but they have also been beat, just like Warsaw another 6A team. 

Bottom line I think Penn needs to look closer to home and find meaningful games outside of St. Joe County, but less than an hour away. Just my opinion.

Could Penn find their way into a Michigan conference with similar sized schools like how Mt Carmel IL was in the Big 8 for years? Not sure where closest MHSAA D1 school would be from Granger.

[RegionFBFan]

4 minutes ago, RocksFan23 said:

Could Penn find their way into a Michigan conference with similar sized schools like how Mt Carmel IL was in the Big 8 for years? Not sure where closest MHSAA D1 school would be from Granger.

Portage has 2 big schools in Portage Northern and Portage Central but it’s still a 70-90 min drive to Portage. Benton Harbor/St Joe have 2 big schools as well. Better driving distance. 
Personally, I would hate to see Penn go outside of Indiana. They really are in a tough spot logistically speaking.

[RocksFan23]

20 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

Portage has 2 big schools in Portage Northern and Portage Central but it’s still a 70-90 min drive to Portage. Benton Harbor/St Joe have 2 big schools as well. Better driving distance. 
Personally, I would hate to see Penn go outside of Indiana. They really are in a tough spot logistically speaking.

Makes sense, I'm with you, wouldn't be great to have to play out of state majority of the season if it's that far to big Michigan schools. Sounds a lot like the Terre Haute schools in terms of being relatively isolated for the size they are (albeit much better athletics at Penn).

Edited November 1, 2024 by RocksFan23
Addition

[PDB26]

42 minutes ago, RegionFBFan said:

Portage has 2 big schools in Portage Northern and Portage Central but it’s still a 70-90 min drive to Portage. Benton Harbor/St Joe have 2 big schools as well. Better driving distance. 
Personally, I would hate to see Penn go outside of Indiana. They really are in a tough spot logistically speaking.

58 minutes ago, RocksFan23 said:

Could Penn find their way into a Michigan conference with similar sized schools like how Mt Carmel IL was in the Big 8 for years? Not sure where closest MHSAA D1 school would be from Granger.

Michigan has relatively few consolidated districts and the nearest similarly-sized schools are around Grand Rapids. The Portage and Berrien County schools are basically 4A/3A schools.

1 hour ago, kabookieman2007 said:

DAC for Penn on paper might seem like a good fit, but as mentioned the time change cant be ignored, the kids likely wouldnt be back home before midnight on a gameday; not horrible on a Friday but exhausting if its a Tuesday baseball or basketball game. Not to mention the travel cost and risk, how many winter basketball games would be canceled or have almost no away team attendance because travelling on 80/90 and US 20 or even US 6 is downright dangerous sometimes in the winter. Then you get into the rescheduling or all together lost games; no one wants that. 

Ft. Wayne is no better except for the time zone. Their is good competition in this area; Penn just needs to get over itself and seek out competition closer to home. The NLC has plenty of schools that are lightyears ahead of SB schools with enthusiastic fan bases that care about their teams. Also in the NIC, being split into two divisions like it is kind of deprives other schools of opportunities. I guarantee you Jimtown (another historically significant team), or Northwood could give Penn a better game than most SB schools. Just look at Mishawaka's record in the NLC, they have done well but they have also been beat, just like Warsaw another 6A team. 

Bottom line I think Penn needs to look closer to home and find meaningful games outside of St. Joe County, but less than an hour away. Just my opinion.

Penn already travels regularly to The Region in most sports, and I'm not so certain that getting to Warsaw or Wawasee in January is going to be more than marginally better than getting out to Merrillville or Lake Central. Still, point taken.

The NIC isn't split into divisions anymore, and the schools play a round robin––which exacerbates the problem. Penn has proved they can lose games they have no business losing over the past four seasons, but scheduling more schools outside of 6A/5A, at least for varsity games, isn't much of a solution to this problem.

[Footballking16]

Carmel loses 29-28 to Zionsville. Time to burn it down.

[BTF]

Hamilton Southeastern 20, Homestead 14

Interesting

[FastpacedO]

6 hours ago, BTF said:

Hamilton Southeastern 20, Homestead 14

Interesting

Interesting indeed. HSE seemed to be in control running the ball well jumping out to a 17-0 lead. Homestead made a 4th qtr comeback scoring 14 points. The Royals held on. Here is the box score 

 

 

[BTF]

1 hour ago, FastpacedO said:

Interesting indeed. HSE seemed to be in control running the ball well jumping out to a 17-0 lead. Homestead made a 4th qtr comeback scoring 14 points. The Royals held on. Here is the box score 

 

 

Pretty impressive of Homestead to hold them to two touchdowns and two field goals. Not sure anyone saw that coming. Everyone, including me, calls blowout every time Homestead takes the field against an Indy team. Kudos to them for putting up a fight. 

[GOLDRUSH1985]

On 10/30/2024 at 10:46 PM, Komets2727 said:

I see Snider winning somewhere around 24 -10 type of game. I really think that Snider will be the best defense Elkhart has seen all year while Snider has seen Warren Central and Carroll defenses that are head and shoulders better than Elkhart. Just like most games, turnovers could be the equalizer for Elkhart. I think Elkhart has to get a defensive touchdown and have at least 3 Snider turnovers as well to win, which could be possible. 

I watched video on Elkhart and they seem to be susceptible to a good passing team, unfortunately Snider is not that so this could be lower scoring than 24-10. I struggle to see how Elkhart is going to move the ball on Snider. You had a first hand view of Elkhart when they played Penn and I watched quite a bit of video of that game, what are your thoughts?
 

I don’t believe for a second that Carrol’s defense is head and shoulders better than Elkhart. 

[psaboy]

47 minutes ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I don’t believe for a second that Carrol’s defense is head and shoulders better than Elkhart. 

Elkhart Run D was really good from what I saw, didn't see whole game. Snider will need to be able to pass ball to continue past Carroll and beyond. Logan being hurt doesn't help

[FastpacedO]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

Pretty impressive of Homestead to hold them to two touchdowns and two field goals. Not sure anyone saw that coming. Everyone, including me, calls blowout every time Homestead takes the field against an Indy team. Kudos to them for putting up a fight. 

Agreed

[Komets2727]

1 hour ago, GOLDRUSH1985 said:

I don’t believe for a second that Carrol’s defense is head and shoulders better than Elkhart. 

I stand by that statement, but mean no disrespect to Elkhart at all. Snider should have had 24 points in this game, an inexplicable fumble on the one yard line late in the game and a missed field goal. Yeah, I know we had a defensive TD as well. Elkhart’s defensive line was almost on par with Warren Central, they were dominant, but that secondary and even linebacking core were beatable. 

Carroll completely shut down Snider when they played several weeks ago, 30-6. Snider moved the ball much better against Elkhart than they did Carroll. We won’t even talk about what Warren did to Snider’s offense. 

Bottom line, Elkhart’s defense was very good, offense not so much. Ranking the defenses Snider played this year I had Warren Central, Carroll, and Elkhart in that order. Much respect to all 3 teams!!!

 

[temptation]

3 hours ago, FastpacedO said:

Interesting indeed. HSE seemed to be in control running the ball well jumping out to a 17-0 lead. Homestead made a 4th qtr comeback scoring 14 points. The Royals held on. Here is the box score 

 

 

Uh yeah, this tells a different story.

This is an example of how final scores don’t tell the whole story.

Nearly 6 1/2 yards per carry…

[slice60]

12 hours ago, Footballking16 said:

Carmel loses 29-28 to Zionsville. Time to burn it down.

I only saw video of the Eagles TD & 2 pt conv for the win. On the TD, did the QB score or did he fumble into the EZ for a recovery by a teammate? I could not tell from the video.

On the 2pt, Zion went Wildcat with Hilton-- he had to break a tackle near the sideline & then dive for the goal line near the pylon. Heckuva effort. Too bad it was negated because the refs huddled together postgame & decided that the Zionsville players left the sideline too early to celebrate. Oh wait, my bad-- that horrendously terrible totally lacking common sense call happened last week.  

[temptation]

How nervous is Brownsburg right now?

[BTF]

1 hour ago, temptation said:

Uh yeah, this tells a different story.

This is an example of how final scores don’t tell the whole story.

Nearly 6 1/2 yards per carry…

Passing doesn't count? No one is saying that Homestead is as good as HSE, just that they put up a fight considering most on here was expecting a running clock. You can run the football up and down the field all you want, but it does you no good if you can't get it to the house. Kudos to the Homestead defense. 

[temptation]

Just now, BTF said:

Passing doesn't count? No one is saying that Homestead is as good as HSE, just that they put up a fight considering most on here was expecting a running clock. You can run the football up and down the field all you want, but it does you no good if you can't get it to the house. Kudos to the Homestead defense. 

Sure passing counts but based on those in the know isn’t it safe to say once HSE built a solid lead, they went into a shell and kept everything in front of them?

When the clock becomes your friend, you just let the other team run out of time which it sounds like what happened here.

A moral victory of sorts…congrats.

Edited November 2, 2024 by temptation