Coaches Confidential: Is tournament success factor working? What about private schools?

[Footballking16]

3 minutes ago, Komets2727 said:

I find it interesting that plenty of coaches want to talk about public vs. private schools. Honestly, I like the idea several brought up about private schools playing at least one level above their class.

Also, I think the 2 year window is too small for reclassification. 3-4 years would be better

What purpose does it serve to have Hammond Bishop Noll play up a class? They're as bad as any team in the state.

The success factor does what it intends to do; bumps up successful programs and doesn't discriminate against school type.

I would agree that a 3-4 year cycle makes more sense. 

[First_Backer_Inside]

From a coaches stand point, idk what it is about the sport, but in a lot of public schools right now it feels like fewer and fewer kids are coming out for football, regardless of the class or success. Rochester has been very successful the last couple of years, and yet coaches fight tooth and nail to get 35 kids through 4 classes to come out for the team. Gone are the days of a freshman team, JV team, and Varsity team for most public 3A teams and down, maybe even some 4A. I'd like to blame baseball for it, but I don't know enough about travel ball and haven't researched enough to really know for sure if that is the reason or not. It just feels like in our area we have a lot of kids playing baseball all year long. It is a headache though trying to get the numbers on a football team we would have seen 10-15 years ago.

[Muda69]

30 minutes ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

From a coaches stand point, idk what it is about the sport, but in a lot of public schools right now it feels like fewer and fewer kids are coming out for football, regardless of the class or success. Rochester has been very successful the last couple of years, and yet coaches fight tooth and nail to get 35 kids through 4 classes to come out for the team. Gone are the days of a freshman team, JV team, and Varsity team for most public 3A teams and down, maybe even some 4A. I'd like to blame baseball for it, but I don't know enough about travel ball and haven't researched enough to really know for sure if that is the reason or not. It just feels like in our area we have a lot of kids playing baseball all year long. It is a headache though trying to get the numbers on a football team we would have seen 10-15 years ago.

I thought the growth of soccer at the varsity high school level, especially at smaller enrollment schools, was the bugaboo here?

[kdets89]

You'd think winning three in a row would be worth more than just two shout-outs.  Tough crowd!

[First_Backer_Inside]

16 hours ago, Muda69 said:

I thought the growth of soccer at the varsity high school level, especially at smaller enrollment schools, was the bugaboo here?

Those numbers are low at Rochester as well. Could be a contributing factor at other schools though. Haven't heard enough from other coaches to confirm that. Some smaller schools don't play soccer at their school, like Lewis Cass, and still don't have the numbers they used to have in past years.

[Plymouthfan91]

20 hours ago, First_Backer_Inside said:

From a coaches stand point, idk what it is about the sport, but in a lot of public schools right now it feels like fewer and fewer kids are coming out for football, regardless of the class or success. Rochester has been very successful the last couple of years, and yet coaches fight tooth and nail to get 35 kids through 4 classes to come out for the team. Gone are the days of a freshman team, JV team, and Varsity team for most public 3A teams and down, maybe even some 4A. I'd like to blame baseball for it, but I don't know enough about travel ball and haven't researched enough to really know for sure if that is the reason or not. It just feels like in our area we have a lot of kids playing baseball all year long. It is a headache though trying to get the numbers on a football team we would have seen 10-15 years ago.

Part of the problem today is kids are being pulled ina lot of different directions.  If you spend all summer working on being a basketball, football, and baseball player you don't have time for anything else.  Burnout sets in.  4A and below need plenty of multi-sport athletes to be successful and most pick one sport to play.  Who could blame them?  I'm going to sound like the out man at the end of the bar but in my day... we had weights three times a week with open gym once or twice a week.  No tourneys, no "7on7", no weekends spent at camps.  We had jobs and chased the girls.  I wish kids could have a more normal high school experience as an athlete.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

21 hours ago, Frozen Tundra said:

Yeah winning is only “boring” to people who aren’t fans of the team doing all the winning. From 2004-2020, I for sure wasn’t bored of all the winning Columbus East was doing. Blowing out conference opponents by multiple touchdowns every week for years wasn’t boring either. I’d love to have that again. Once all that “boring” winning stops, you definitely miss it.

Preach.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

@Frozen Tundra I sure miss the days of winning state titles. 

[Frozen Tundra]

12 minutes ago, BLACKGOLD2007 said:

@Frozen Tundra I sure miss the days of winning state titles. 

Yeah I bet. I miss our 96 game HHC win streak. I could be wrong but I believe that was second-longest to Penn’s 153 straight NIC wins.

[BLACKGOLD2007]

59 minutes ago, Frozen Tundra said:

Yeah I bet. I miss our 96 game HHC win streak. I could be wrong but I believe that was second-longest to Penn’s 153 straight NIC wins.

I was there when the streak was like 135. We had won 30+ games, in a row, against our rival Mishawaka. The team that broke the streak was Mishawaka. They won four straight and since then we have gone 9-1 against them. 

[Titan32]

The student populations are so vastly different between a business that offers an exclusive experience vs the average public school.  

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

On 8/12/2024 at 11:26 AM, BDGiant93 said:

Roncalli and Chatard are a little different than Cathedral in that they primarily draw from an individual parish where as Cathedral (and Brebeuf) draw from everywhere.

False. Chatard gets plenty of players from across the Indy Archdiocese. Two of their quarterbacks are Cmehil boys from St. Michael's (believe their house actually backs up to Ritter). And two of their other stars are also from the west side diocese and St. Michael as well, Dan Adams and Jack Davis. 
 

Accusing Cathedral or Brebeuf of pillaging players from all P/P middle schools is just inaccurate. All schools (especially P/P) have to recruit students for their lifeblood. Cathedral is no different than the rest. 
 

I still believe any public that builds a program and recruits/spends time on the summer circuit can garner similar results. As soon as the IHSAA granted open enrollment for all publics, the success factor should have been revoked. 

[temptation]

2 minutes ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

False. Chatard gets plenty of players from across the Indy Archdiocese. Two of their quarterbacks are Cmehil boys from St. Michael's (believe their house actually backs up to Ritter). And two of their other stars are also from the west side diocese and St. Michael as well, Dan Adams and Jack Davis. 
 

Accusing Cathedral or Brebeuf of pillaging players from all P/P middle schools is just inaccurate. All schools (especially P/P) have to recruit students for their lifeblood. Cathedral is no different than the rest. 
 

I still believe any public that builds a program and recruits/spends time on the summer circuit can garner similar results. As soon as the IHSAA granted open enrollment for all publics, the success factor should have been revoked. 

Your last paragraph is satire right?

[JQWL]

16 minutes ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

False. Chatard gets plenty of players from across the Indy Archdiocese. Two of their quarterbacks are Cmehil boys from St. Michael's (believe their house actually backs up to Ritter). And two of their other stars are also from the west side diocese and St. Michael as well, Dan Adams and Jack Davis. 
 

Accusing Cathedral or Brebeuf of pillaging players from all P/P middle schools is just inaccurate. All schools (especially P/P) have to recruit students for their lifeblood. Cathedral is no different than the rest. 
 

I still believe any public that builds a program and recruits/spends time on the summer circuit can garner similar results. As soon as the IHSAA granted open enrollment for all publics, the success factor should have been revoked. 

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

[Donnie Baker]

Just now, JQWL said:

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

STATE LAW! 

[IndianaWrestlingGuy1]

10 hours ago, temptation said:

Your last paragraph is satire right?

Nope. Families move all the time for better opportunities for their kids. Hell, you don't even have to live in the school district now. The IHSAA doesn't have as much oversight as the athletic directors for the schools. If you make a compelling case, it's very doable. There are 100s of these instances annually across the state. You know this. 

10 hours ago, JQWL said:

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

Yep. I misspoke. The IHSAA rarely intervenes though. 

[MarshallCounty]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:50 PM, First_Backer_Inside said:

From a coaches stand point, idk what it is about the sport, but in a lot of public schools right now it feels like fewer and fewer kids are coming out for football, regardless of the class or success. Rochester has been very successful the last couple of years, and yet coaches fight tooth and nail to get 35 kids through 4 classes to come out for the team. Gone are the days of a freshman team, JV team, and Varsity team for most public 3A teams and down, maybe even some 4A. I'd like to blame baseball for it, but I don't know enough about travel ball and haven't researched enough to really know for sure if that is the reason or not. It just feels like in our area we have a lot of kids playing baseball all year long. It is a headache though trying to get the numbers on a football team we would have seen 10-15 years ago.

Football takes a lot of effort and guts, not many kids have that dedication and drive pursue it. 

[Muda69]

11 hours ago, JQWL said:

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

Actually it was the Indiana General Assembly that passed legislation which enabled open enrollment.  I believe it established or amended IC 20-26-11 .

[Tin Cup]

12 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

False. Chatard gets plenty of players from across the Indy Archdiocese. Two of their quarterbacks are Cmehil boys from St. Michael's (believe their house actually backs up to Ritter). And two of their other stars are also from the west side diocese and St. Michael as well, Dan Adams and Jack Davis. 
 

All true, but has less to do with Chatard and more to do with Ritter.   I'm sure several schools benefited from the wave of St Micheals kids that chose not to play for Ritter.  

[BDGiant93]

13 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

False. Chatard gets plenty of players from across the Indy Archdiocese. Two of their quarterbacks are Cmehil boys from St. Michael's (believe their house actually backs up to Ritter). And two of their other stars are also from the west side diocese and St. Michael as well, Dan Adams and Jack Davis. 
 

Accusing Cathedral or Brebeuf of pillaging players from all P/P middle schools is just inaccurate. All schools (especially P/P) have to recruit students for their lifeblood. Cathedral is no different than the rest. 
 

I still believe any public that builds a program and recruits/spends time on the summer circuit can garner similar results. As soon as the IHSAA granted open enrollment for all publics, the success factor should have been revoked. 

I said PRIMARILY...and I didn't accuse anyone of anything. My point was that Brebeuf and Cathedral are not tied to parishes. You're reading things into my statement that were not there.

[BDGiant93]

13 hours ago, JQWL said:

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

And as we've seen firsthand here at BD, you can be enrolled at a public school, live in that district, but not be allowed to play at that school by the IHSAA.

Edited August 14, 2024 by BDGiant93

[tango]

22 minutes ago, BDGiant93 said:

And as we've seen firsthand here at BD, you can be enrolled at a public school, live in that district, but not be allowed to play at that school by the IHSAA.

Yes, in one of the more egregiously bad IHSAA decisions in the past couple of years. 

 

[FastpacedO]

14 hours ago, JQWL said:

IHSAA did not grant open enrollment. The Indiana Department of Education granted open enrollment. The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules. 

Partially true "The IHSAA decides whether transfers are granted eligibility within their rules" This only applies for students already in HS that transfer. Not much the IHSAA does if it is an 8th grader in Pike Township that decides to be a Freshman at Lawrence North (just an example). Totally different from a current HS student that transfers from one HS to another. I have put no effort to look it up, but I would venture to say there are more current High School students that transfer "out" of Private/Parochial schools than transfer "in".

Something not mentioned when the topic of Brebeuf and Cathedral comes up is the amount of schools available in that general area if you knew how close Cathedral, Chatard, North Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Heritage Christian, and Park Tudor were to each other it would surprise many (outside of the Indianapolis area). Brebeuf isn't super far either.

[temptation]

9 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy1 said:

Nope. Families move all the time for better opportunities for their kids. Hell, you don't even have to live in the school district now. The IHSAA doesn't have as much oversight as the athletic directors for the schools. If you make a compelling case, it's very doable. There are 100s of these instances annually across the state. You know this. 

Yep. I misspoke. The IHSAA rarely intervenes though. 

So IPS and rural schools just need to spend more time and try harder?

6 hours ago, BDGiant93 said:

And as we've seen firsthand here at BD, you can be enrolled at a public school, live in that district, but not be allowed to play at that school by the IHSAA.

Yes, poor BD.

[US31]

On 8/12/2024 at 10:36 AM, Footballking16 said:

Not disagreeing with you, but how does putting Cathedral, Chatard, insert any P/P in their own tournament or adding a multiplier help a school like Tech or Washington? It doesn't. You know that and I know that. The success factor benefits a handful of programs a class a year. Teams who perennially go 0-9, 1-8 aren't just going to magically become good by eliminating the P/P's. And for the coach of a program like that to rail against the success factor or advocate for the P/P's to play in the own tournament reeks of whining. 

On 8/12/2024 at 10:49 AM, BTF said:

I think putting the P/P's all in the same tournament is an awful idea. Chances are that Cathedral will run off 8+ state titles before they are upended. And per your other post, Cathedral is where they belong in 6A. They're not there because they have the exact same resources as the other 4A schools. Take it for what it's worth. Be proud that the program you follow is good enough to roll with the big boys. As a Snider fan, I find rumbling with 6A teams more interesting than and easier path in 5A. But that's just me. 

Probably have a lot of other P/P schools open to a multiplier and going into the public tournament after that....