South Bend Saint Joseph High School retiring the Indian nickname/mascot

[Ballhawk]

19 hours ago, Bobref said:

You know that, and I know that. But nevertheless, I give you the Roncalli Royals. And I don’t think the prominent display of the Confederate battle flag at Roncalli events over the years helped.

I think a lot of schools that use Rebels in their nickname chose that mascot when the Civil War was looked upon as the battle for states rights.  It was the romantic Lost Cause.  As years passed you realized it was about human bondage.  Didn't quite fit the romantic image.  I'm sure of Roncalli's early intentions, but it was too easy to fall in with the battle flag and Yosemite Sam-looking Rebel cartoon character.  

I also don't think PETA is going to care about animal names unless you're trotting out live-animal mascots.  I've not really noticed anyone doing this, so I think we're safe.  I do think Frankfort could always go the route of claiming Oscar Mayer and the Wienermobile as their mascot if push came to shove.

[Irishman]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:38 AM, oldtimeqb said:

Can the Cathedral Fighting Irish be far behind?

 

They are just "Irish" now....they had to drop "Fighting" in the early 2000's with a copyright settlement with UND. 
When the term Fighting Irish was coined, it was a derogatory nickname from the days of the Civil War. regular troops often made fun of the Irish units because they would get drunk nightly and apparently do as much fighting in camp as they did on the front lines. 
The leprechaun itself was a cartoonish character that highlighted certain Celtic traits and was created as a way to make fun of the Irish immigrants. 
All that said, the nickname Irish or Fighting Irish do not carry the same level of negativity as some others do or used to. 

[Bobref]

54 minutes ago, Irishman said:

They are just "Irish" now....they had to drop "Fighting" in the early 2000's with a copyright settlement with UND. 

Just to make it clear, “Fighting Irish” is a trademark owned by the University. As you might imagine, the University generates considerable revenue from licensing that trademark, and others. If the holder of a trademark or other intellectual property does not take steps to protect its trademark, then the amount potential licensees would be willing to pay for the use of that trademark goes down or, worst case scenario, the mark passes into the public domain. That means anyone can use it without obtaining a license from the University. The mark becomes worthless.

[Irishman]

1 hour ago, Bobref said:

Just to make it clear, “Fighting Irish” is a trademark owned by the University. As you might imagine, the University generates considerable revenue from licensing that trademark, and others. If the holder of a trademark or other intellectual property does not take steps to protect its trademark, then the amount potential licensees would be willing to pay for the use of that trademark goes down or, worst case scenario, the mark passes into the public domain. That means anyone can use it without obtaining a license from the University. The mark becomes worthless.

I understand...in fact, several high schools around the country had to not only change the name entirely from Fighting Irish to something completely different, they had to change school colors. Cathedral was given more leeway in both cases because of the history between the two schools. There were also a handful of schools around the country that were established by the Holy Cross order that were allowed similar leeway to Cathedral. 

[ASJCPUMA]

When the new SJ was opened all Indiana signs were removed or not used.  The football helmets got rid of the arrows.  For most of the time it was "In Name Only".  The tribe wrote every school in the country with the nickname of an Indian etc.  Saugutuck and Hartford, Michigan both got rid of Indians.  When they announced the committee and the next day the tribe hit the media circus around here it was over and then with the diocese, done.  Funny they never released the survey to even alumni.  Regardless, I will always be a St. Joe Indian but it is time to move on.  I wonder what Knox, Anderson, and others might end up doing.

[Payne]

54 minutes ago, Irishman said:

I understand...in fact, several high schools around the country had to not only change the name entirely from Fighting Irish to something completely different, they had to change school colors. Cathedral was given more leeway in both cases because of the history between the two schools. There were also a handful of schools around the country that were established by the OSJ that were allowed similar leeway to Cathedral. 

The Cathedral High School website refers to the athletic teams as Fighting Irish. Also, the Cathedral school bus that comes by my neighborhood every day to pick up and drop off students from the local Catholic church says "Cathedral Fighting Irish" on the front of the bus.

I wonder if they received permission to use Fighting Irish again in 2011 when the Brothers of Holy Cross reconnected with the school.

[temptation]

This thread is comedic gold.  Made my day better.

Well done folks.

[AG]

On 5/5/2023 at 10:43 AM, Muda69 said:

Don't forget the Kokom Wildkats. 

And let PETA show up in Frankfort to protest the Hot Dogs.  They will get run out of town on a rail, guaranteed.

 

I heard that the Pioneer Panthers will be changing their mascot because it offends five year olds.

[foxbat]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:48 PM, Bobref said:

Just to make it clear, “Fighting Irish” is a trademark owned by the University. As you might imagine, the University generates considerable revenue from licensing that trademark, and others. If the holder of a trademark or other intellectual property does not take steps to protect its trademark, then the amount potential licensees would be willing to pay for the use of that trademark goes down or, worst case scenario, the mark passes into the public domain. That means anyone can use it without obtaining a license from the University. The mark becomes worthless.

I recall when I first moved up this way, McCutcheon was using the longhorn emblem as its symbol.  If I recall correctly, they got a letter from the University of Texas "requesting" that they consider another symbol.

[foxbat]

10 minutes ago, foxbat said:

I recall when I first moved up this way, McCutcheon was using the longhorn emblem as its symbol.  If I recall correctly, they got a letter from the University of Texas "requesting" that they consider another symbol.

Perhaps it wasn't a letter ... maybe it was just preemptively avoiding such a letter.

[Goose Liver]

Since we have been off topic how about West Vigo using a form of the University of West Virginia logo?

On 5/4/2023 at 10:40 AM, Bobref said:

Again, not a Catholic school.

Thanks for pointing that out Bob... missed the boat on that one. 

[Muda69]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:10 PM, Ballhawk said:

I also don't think PETA is going to care about animal names unless you're trotting out live-animal mascots.  I've not really noticed anyone doing this, so I think we're safe.  I do think Frankfort could always go the route of claiming Oscar Mayer and the Wienermobile as their mascot if push came to shove.

They will never replace this:

with this:

 One is a great, unique mascot designed by the late Joe Sneathen, a local artist who ran a sign company in Frankfort for many years.  The other is, well, an abomination.

 

[Gipper]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:01 PM, XStar said:

Perhaps we should just go the route of the NFL Washington team when they were changing from the Redskins and switched to just being the "Washington Football Team" for a season.  They were called exactly what they were.  Their name shouldn't offend anyone although their play might have.  

What fun would that be?  It's always fun to have teams like the Cornjerkers, Wooden Shoes, and Banana Slugs on your schedule...

[btownqbcoach1]

On 5/5/2023 at 3:08 PM, Robert said:

Everything is based on the shoes that you stand in. 

I mean, put some boots and on and sack up, then. lol life isn't about "your" feelings. 

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

I mean, put some boots and on and sack up, then. lol life isn't about "your" feelings. 

Wow!

[Irishman]

11 hours ago, foxbat said:

I recall when I first moved up this way, McCutcheon was using the longhorn emblem as its symbol.  If I recall correctly, they got a letter from the University of Texas "requesting" that they consider another symbol.

Michigan State did the same thing with schools using the Spartan helemet. But if I remember right, they charged schools $1 to continue using it. Bishop Chatard went away from it, going back first to an older version of their logo before going to something more reflective of the school itself. 

[Bobref]

32 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Michigan State did the same thing with schools using the Spartan helemet.

I understand Michigan was actually paying schools to copy their god-awful helmets. 🤣😂

[foxbat]

1 hour ago, Irishman said:

Michigan State did the same thing with schools using the Spartan helemet. But if I remember right, they charged schools $1 to continue using it. Bishop Chatard went away from it, going back first to an older version of their logo before going to something more reflective of the school itself. 

I like that idea where high schools are concerned.  The school keeps the copyright intact, can potentially write it off as charity, advertising, or community relations, and the high schools get the use of a recognizable logo.

[btownqbcoach1]

14 hours ago, Bobref said:

Wow!

What are you wowing about? 

It's literally a saying lol... words. "Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians"... if you or anyone else finds offense in that, I can't help you, you're beyond saving. 

Edited May 9 by btownqbcoach1

[Bobref]

2 hours ago, btownqbcoach1 said:

What are you wowing about? 

Your narrow-mindedness.

[Gipper]

On that note, and not being narrow-minded here, I wonder if Notre Dame has a beef with Cathedral using plain gold lids.

 

 

[Bash Riprock]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:14 PM, tango said:

Different in my opinion. I'm not aware of the Catholic Church running assimilation schools (under the guise of missions) in Ireland the same way they did in North America and other places that contributed to the persecution of native people (culture, language, etc.). Plus, ND's mascot is the leprechaun (a fairy in Irish folklore) and not a depiction of a person from Ireland.  Indian mascots are often based on inaccurate, derogatory and/or stereotypical representations.  

That's my soapbox for the day... 

My opinion is that stereotyping is what causes problems.  To assume all feel one way or the other is incorrect.  There are Native Americans that proudly support nicknames such as Seminoles, Utes, and Chippewas.  Perhaps aligning with those groups of Native Americans makes more sense and also getting their input on mascot design.  

https://www.espn.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18484/tribe-supports-native-american-mascots

I struggle a lit bit with giving the "Fighting Irish" nickname and logo a pass.  The logo can absolutely been seen as a stereotype for Irish people.  Of course they fight...that's what they do, right?  I absolutely would understand why many people of Irish descent don't support the logo or name.  

https://onmessage.nd.edu/athletics-branding/logos/leprechaun/

Edited May 9 by Bash Riprock

[btownqbcoach1]

8 hours ago, Bobref said:

Your narrow-mindedness.

That's next to absurd. I just don't have to feel bad for something so insanely miniscule. 

[Muda69]

Peru High school football used to use the Purdue "P" on their helmets, not so sure about now.  Their school colors were already the same as Purdue's so I guess that made sense.

[Gipper]

The term "Fighting Irish" was (of course) coined by the media to praise ND's hard-nosed, gritty play.  Of course, I used the recommendation of a famous media member, Don Lemon, and googled it...