Neighbors to the West, Unhappy

[Coach Nowlin]

'Broken': Lopsided IHSA football state championship games spark public-vs-private debate https://www.pjstar.com/story/sports/high-school/football/2024/11/30/ihsa-illinois-state-football-championship-blowouts-spark-public-vs-private-debate/76665340007/

[jets]

At least the Illinois State Association has the ______ to do something about it. (Multiplier) 

[Coach Nowlin]

the Multiplier been in place for lots of years I believe, has it helped? 

[JQWL]

I'd like to know how the schools in Iowa feel about their proposal to use Free and Reduced Lunches to set their enrollment. To me, that seems to be the best solution that actually addresses the problem. I'd like to see how that and a 4 year success factor (Or even 6) instead of a 2 year success factor.

[Muda69]

Go Greenfield/Northwestern Tigers.

 

[Coach Nowlin]

Is this the PURPLE TIGER? 

[Titan32]

13 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

the Multiplier been in place for lots of years I believe, has it helped? 

They clearly need to adjust it up a tad.

[jets]

14 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

the Multiplier been in place for lots of years I believe, has it helped? 

At least they do SOMETHING - here in good ol Indiana we just put our heads in the sand and act like it is a non-issue! 

I guess we have the success factor - almost worked to perfection this year with 5 of 6 public school State Champs. 

 

[wabashalwaysfights]

1 minute ago, jets said:

At least they do SOMETHING - here in good ol Indiana we just put our heads in the sand and act like it is a non-issue! 

I guess we have the success factor - almost worked to perfection this year with 5 of 6 public school State Champs. 

 

Is this the actual goal though? Pretty sure you are being tongue in cheek, but even if you are, isn't this year kind of proof that the success factor has been a success at least to some degree?

[Muda69]

2 hours ago, Coach Nowlin said:

Is this the PURPLE TIGER? 

No, the Orange & Black Tiger.

 

[Tippy]

2 hours ago, jets said:

At least they do SOMETHING - here in good ol Indiana we just put our heads in the sand and act like it is a non-issue! 

I guess we have the success factor - almost worked to perfection this year with 5 of 6 public school State Champs. 

 

What was working to perfection before the success factor?  Here are some more facts for you jets.  

1986 - 4 of 5 public schools won state.  Cathedral was the only p/p

1987 - Public school sweep

1988 - 4 of 5 public schools won state.  Roncalli was the only p/p

1993 - 4of 5 public schools won state.  Roncalli was the only p/p

1997 - 4of 5 public schools won state.  Chatard was the only p/p

2000- 4 of 5 public schools won state.  Mater Dei was the only p/p

2005 - Public school sweep

From 1978-2008 only 3 times did p/p's win state in class 1A.  LCC in 1999 and Ritter in 2003 and 2008.  LCC won state from 2009-2012 and then they came up with the success factor.

[scarab527]

Yeah, the multiplier is kinda a joke when teams can just get a waiver to be exempt from it. 
 

Ironic part is that the only public to win, East St Louis, recruits just as much as Mount Carmel, Loyola, etc. 

 

Obviously part of the issue is the joke of a classification system, but the other part is the fact that the Chicago Catholic League is so much better than any other league in the state. Case in point: in the Prep Bowl, which pits the best Chicago Catholic not still in the playoffs versus the best CPS school not still in the playoffs, saw 5-6 St Ignatius (didn’t make playoffs) destroy 12-1 Whitney Young (was a 1 seed in the playoffs) 47-8. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by scarab527

[WestfieldRocks]

6 hours ago, JQWL said:

I'd like to know how the schools in Iowa feel about their proposal to use Free and Reduced Lunches to set their enrollment. To me, that seems to be the best solution that actually addresses the problem. I'd like to see how that and a 4 year success factor (Or even 6) instead of a 2 year success factor.

I have not seen it posted here yet, but another Indy coaching change happened two weeks ago. Southport football coach Alex Bettag  was terminated after four seasons. Southport went 0-10 this past season, 2-39 in Bettag's four seasons. Bettag mentioned in the Indy Star the fact that Perry Township, and Southport in particular, has a large Chin population that has immigrated from Burma. He said that these kids count towards Southport's total Class 6A student population, even though those students are not familiar with football, but with soccer. It's making Southport at a disadvantage having to play in the largest class in all sports.  Earlier this year both the girls and boys' basketball coaches resigned. The girls coach was there for 7 seasons, winning an average of 7 games per season. The boy's coach resigned after just one season.

 

[PHJIrish]

6 hours ago, wabashalwaysfights said:

Is this the actual goal though? Pretty sure you are being tongue in cheek, but even if you are, isn't this year kind of proof that the success factor has been a success at least to some degree?

Oh, he's not being tic! That's the whole idea of the "success factor" to penalize Private Schools that win too much.

[Yuccaguy]

2 hours ago, scarab527 said:

Yeah, the multiplier is kinda a joke when teams can just get a waiver to be exempt from it. 
 

Ironic part is that the only public to win, East St Louis, recruits just as much as Mount Carmel, Loyola, etc. 

 

Obviously part of the issue is the joke of a classification system, but the other part is the fact that the Chicago Catholic League is so much better than any other league in the state. Case in point: in the Prep Bowl, which pits the best Chicago Catholic not still in the playoffs versus the best CPS school not still in the playoffs, saw 5-6 St Ignatius (didn’t make playoffs) destroy 12-1 Whitney Young (was a 1 seed in the playoffs) 47-8. 

@scarab527  Hell, being from the STL Metro Area.  I can assure you its WAY MORE than those schools!   

[Irishman]

1 hour ago, PHJIrish said:

Oh, he's not being tic! That's the whole idea of the "success factor" to penalize Private Schools that win too much.

Your bias is showing. One could also say that for years prior to the success factor, public schools with disadvantaged populations were being penalized by having to face private schools on a regular basis, in many cases yearly, who do not have a disadvantaged population, giving them an inherent advantage. By the way, public schools are impacted by the success factor as well. 

[tango]

3 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

I have not seen it posted here yet, but another Indy coaching change happened two weeks ago. Southport football coach Alex Bettag  was terminated after four seasons. Southport went 0-10 this past season, 2-39 in Bettag's four seasons. Bettag mentioned in the Indy Star the fact that Perry Township, and Southport in particular, has a large Chin population that has immigrated from Burma. He said that these kids count towards Southport's total Class 6A student population, even though those students are not familiar with football, but with soccer. It's making Southport at a disadvantage having to play in the largest class in all sports.  Earlier this year both the girls and boys' basketball coaches resigned. The girls coach was there for 7 seasons, winning an average of 7 games per season. The boy's coach resigned after just one season.

 

Let us know when soccer players are considered "non-participating" students. They may not be from Burma, but we have a bunch too. And the ones who get cut have no interest in football. 

[foxbat]

4 hours ago, WestfieldRocks said:

I have not seen it posted here yet, but another Indy coaching change happened two weeks ago. Southport football coach Alex Bettag  was terminated after four seasons. Southport went 0-10 this past season, 2-39 in Bettag's four seasons. Bettag mentioned in the Indy Star the fact that Perry Township, and Southport in particular, has a large Chin population that has immigrated from Burma. He said that these kids count towards Southport's total Class 6A student population, even though those students are not familiar with football, but with soccer. It's making Southport at a disadvantage having to play in the largest class in all sports.  Earlier this year both the girls and boys' basketball coaches resigned. The girls coach was there for 7 seasons, winning an average of 7 games per season. The boy's coach resigned after just one season.

 

Why is there an assumption that there has to be competitiveness in football to be correctly classified as a 6A sport school?  It would seem to me that, if there's a huge population that's familiar with and, perhaps, proficient in soccer, then an astute AD would ride that wave.  Not necessarily trying to bend the will of the gods to football, but instead to the arc of the school's talent.  Harrison is roughly a couple of hundred kids smaller than Southport.  It is 6A this season after being perpetually stuck toward the top of 5A enrollment for a long time.  Since 1994, Harrison has seen three sectional titles in football in 5A, with a pair of back-to-backs coming in 2018 and 2019 as the school started to hope for further football post-season success.  That's been kind of dashed with the new jump to 6A.

With that said, what has Harrison done?  In 2017 and 2024, it won a state title in boys' soccer.  Boys' tennis was runner up in 2022, unified track and field was runner-up in 2017, and softball was runner-up in 2022.  In 2020, 2021, and 2022 they had the state vault champion in gymnastics.  In 2021, they had the state champ in 200-meter dash.  In 2022, 2023, and 2024 they had a state champion in mixes of 50-yard freestyle and 100-yard butterfly.  Also had a state champion individual in men's tennis in 2022.  In terms of individual runner-ups, vault in 2019, 220 lb. wrestling in 2020, and women's tennis individual in 2024. 

Harrison's also had recent sectional wins in baseball in 2012, 2022, and 2023.  Girls basketball sectional in 2023.  Boys' XCountry sectionals in 2020, 2023, and 2024 with a regional in 2019.  Boys' XCountry sectionals in 2021, 2023, and 2024 with a regional in 2021.  Boys' golf sectionals in 2010-2019 with regional in 2016.  Girls' golf sectionals in 2019, 2020, and 2024.  Gymnastics with sectionals in 2020-2023.  Girls' soccer sectionals in 2018, and 2020-2024.  Sofball with sectionals in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023 and regionals in 2022 and 2023.  Boys' swimming and diving sectional in 2024.  Girls' track and field with sectionals in 2009-2012, 2014, and 2021-2024.  Girls' volleyball sections 2007-2010, 2012, 2014, 2023, and 2024.  Boys wresting with sectionals 2012-2024 and regionals in 2013-2021 and 2024.

Realistically, will Harrison ever be competing beyond a section in football?  Given that they share the sectional with Westfield, it's unlikely although we can hope that the IHSAA will entertain 7A football.  There are, plenty of other areas to leverage in the school even though anything beyond a sectional right now, and even a section, is a long ways off.  In essence find what the student body may be able to do.

[crimsonace1]

10 hours ago, jets said:

At least they do SOMETHING - here in good ol Indiana we just put our heads in the sand and act like it is a non-issue! 

I guess we have the success factor - almost worked to perfection this year with 5 of 6 public school State Champs. 

 

Illinois has both the success factor and a 1.65 multiplier. 

However, the multiplier is waived for schools that haven't won what is their equivalent of a sectional in, I believe, four years. So they, I guess, have a "non-success factor." 

[FastpacedO]

14 hours ago, scarab527 said:

Yeah, the multiplier is kinda a joke when teams can just get a waiver to be exempt from it. 

Serious question (because I do not have a clue). Has any school that has the waiver to be exempt from the multiplier benefitted (been to or won a State Championship in Illinois). I seriously do not know.

My honest opinion any multiplier (this goes for any State) does not work and is nothing but a bandaid to give the optics that (insert name) Athletic Association is trying to combat what is deemed as an unlevel playing field. Contrary to popular belief or hot takes it is not just P/P there are Public schools that enjoy advantages over other Public schools (especially in Indiana where there is open enrollment). I don't have a perfect solution because I think there are multiple things that need to happen, but a multiplier does absolutely nothing.

[FastpacedO]

9 hours ago, foxbat said:

Why is there an assumption that there has to be competitiveness in football to be correctly classified as a 6A sport school?  It would seem to me that, if there's a huge population that's familiar with and, perhaps, proficient in soccer, then an astute AD would ride that wave.  Not necessarily trying to bend the will of the gods to football, but instead to the arc of the school's talent.  Harrison is roughly a couple of hundred kids smaller than Southport.  It is 6A this season after being perpetually stuck toward the top of 5A enrollment for a long time.  Since 1994, Harrison has seen three sectional titles in football in 5A, with a pair of back-to-backs coming in 2018 and 2019 as the school started to hope for further football post-season success.  That's been kind of dashed with the new jump to 6A.

With that said, what has Harrison done?  In 2017 and 2024, it won a state title in boys' soccer.  Boys' tennis was runner up in 2022, unified track and field was runner-up in 2017, and softball was runner-up in 2022.  In 2020, 2021, and 2022 they had the state vault champion in gymnastics.  In 2021, they had the state champ in 200-meter dash.  In 2022, 2023, and 2024 they had a state champion in mixes of 50-yard freestyle and 100-yard butterfly.  Also had a state champion individual in men's tennis in 2022.  In terms of individual runner-ups, vault in 2019, 220 lb. wrestling in 2020, and women's tennis individual in 2024. 

Harrison's also had recent sectional wins in baseball in 2012, 2022, and 2023.  Girls basketball sectional in 2023.  Boys' XCountry sectionals in 2020, 2023, and 2024 with a regional in 2019.  Boys' XCountry sectionals in 2021, 2023, and 2024 with a regional in 2021.  Boys' golf sectionals in 2010-2019 with regional in 2016.  Girls' golf sectionals in 2019, 2020, and 2024.  Gymnastics with sectionals in 2020-2023.  Girls' soccer sectionals in 2018, and 2020-2024.  Sofball with sectionals in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023 and regionals in 2022 and 2023.  Boys' swimming and diving sectional in 2024.  Girls' track and field with sectionals in 2009-2012, 2014, and 2021-2024.  Girls' volleyball sections 2007-2010, 2012, 2014, 2023, and 2024.  Boys wresting with sectionals 2012-2024 and regionals in 2013-2021 and 2024.

Realistically, will Harrison ever be competing beyond a section in football?  Given that they share the sectional with Westfield, it's unlikely although we can hope that the IHSAA will entertain 7A football.  There are, plenty of other areas to leverage in the school even though anything beyond a sectional right now, and even a section, is a long ways off.  In essence find what the student body may be able to do.

Great post. I do not want to see the IHSAA go to 7 classes (honestly not enough football playing schools in Indiana). What I do want to see is them keep the 6 classes and make 6A-32 teams and 1A 32 teams. Then class 2A, 3A, 4A, and 5A 62 teams (max of 64). I am fine with the success factor but I think 2 years is too short and it should be 4 years. I think there are other tweaks that could be made to the success factor. I am not sold on the 2023 tweak to the success factor rule that the number is applied after a team plays two years in the same class, not necessarily the two years in the same classification cycle".

[BTF]

55 minutes ago, FastpacedO said:

Great post. I do not want to see the IHSAA go to 7 classes (honestly not enough football playing schools in Indiana). What I do want to see is them keep the 6 classes and make 6A-32 teams and 1A 32 teams. Then class 2A, 3A, 4A, and 5A 62 teams (max of 64). I am fine with the success factor but I think 2 years is too short and it should be 4 years. I think there are other tweaks that could be made to the success factor. I am not sold on the 2023 tweak to the success factor rule that the number is applied after a team plays two years in the same class, not necessarily the two years in the same classification cycle".

Probably the easiest change the IHSAA can implement. It makes so much sense that it's head scratching as to why it hasn't come to fruition yet. 

[whiteshoes]

This is a situation that every state is trying to address in different ways.   The most glaring example is Florida, where a Top 10 nationally ranked team (Chaminade-Madonna) participates in its smallest class tournament.    They won their first two games by an aggregate score of 133-0.    Quite honestly, I do not think anyone has come up with an equitable solution.   Louisiana has segregated public and private schools into their own tournaments, then at the end of each season the question arises to who the best team in the state is.   The Top 10 in national polls are dominated by private schools, with Santa Ana Mater Dei closing in on their second consecutive national title.   I guess if you look at it, Indiana has come as close to anyone with attempting to give all schools a shot at a title.    However, with that being said, I really do not think that there will ever be a solution that appeases everyone.

[Muda69]

11 hours ago, foxbat said:

With that said, what has Harrison done?  In 2017 and 2024, it won a state title in boys' soccer.  Boys' tennis was runner up in 2022, unified track and field was runner-up in 2017, and softball was runner-up in 2022.  In 2020, 2021, and 2022 they had the state vault champion in gymnastics.  In 2021, they had the state champ in 200-meter dash.  In 2022, 2023, and 2024 they had a state champion in mixes of 50-yard freestyle and 100-yard butterfly.  Also had a state champion individual in men's tennis in 2022.  In terms of individual runner-ups, vault in 2019, 220 lb. wrestling in 2020, and women's tennis individual in 2024. 

 

We get it. Harrison is a rich school in a rich district. So many of the kids probably:

a. Participate in soccer/gymnastics/track/field/swimming/wrestling/tennis/softball  at the travel/club level in addition to the Harrison teams.  Cost: big $.

b. Have parents who pay big $ for their little Johnny or Susan have professional personal training/coaching in the aforementioned sports.  

[whiteshoes]

After some further thought on this matter, perhaps Arizona has the best idea.   At the end of the season, they take the eight best teams no matter size or class and put them in an "Open" tournament.   Seems to work well for them.