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Here are my thoughts. They are lengthy and involved, as this is a very, very difficult call. Please read the explanation as well as the conclusion so that everyone understands I have absolutely no problem with this Referee's call. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this is a multiple state finals crew. The R has a stellar reputation, well-deserved. I’ve spent a long time looking at the video and going through the rule book and case book, luxuries this Referee didn’t have. I’m still not sure I’ve got it right. But I looked at the play from the standpoint of an observer, who will get the crew together after the game to discuss mechanics, rules, and thought processes on this very difficult play. Here’s my $.02: From the video angle (which is not the same angle the R had), it looks like to me the QB is securely holding the ball, he begins his throwing motion, changes his mind, tries to hold onto the ball, but with momentum it comes out of his grasp. It is possible that a different angle shows something else. But from the comments I’ve seen, that seems to be the likeliest explanation for what happened. I saw someone reference the “tuck rule.” That rule doesn’t exist in the NF code. So, forget about that. So, the question I’m going to work through is whether this is an incomplete forward pass, or a fumble recovered by the defense for a TD, as ruled by the R. First, let me state categorically, I have no criticism of the R’s performance on this play, or even his final ruling. From what the video shows, R was in the right position, looking at what he was supposed to be looking at. He came in deliberately but decisively with a good signal. His body language displayed confidence in his call. He did everything right from a mechanical standpoint. Second, in order to answer the critical question, we start with the rules. What is a pass? “Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight.” It is also true that “Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact.” We also have to factor in the “when in doubt” that officials can use to resolve thorny issues like this one: “When in doubt, it is an incomplete forward pass and not a fumble.” Here’s the case for a fumble vs. an incomplete pass: The rule says a pass is “thrown.” This is not a term that is defined in the rules. To many people, the word “thrown” connotes an intentional act, not an accidental one. If the QB did not intend to release the ball, he didn’t “throw” it, so it cannot be considered a pass. In other words, a pass must be intentional, not accidental. No intent, no pass. And if it’s not a pass, it must be a fumble. This is a reasonable interpretation of the rules. In none of the secondary sources of case plays I looked through was there any play that contradicted this line of reasoning. So, even though I don’t agree with this interpretation of the rule, I can see it is a reasonable one … especially when you take into account that I’ve spent several hours on this play today, and the R had about 2 seconds to process everything that happened. So, I say again, I find no fault with the R on this play. I just don’t agree with him. It’s clear that both the language of the rule and the case plays I’ve read illustrating the proper interpretation of the rule use the arm moving forward as the key criterion for pass vs. fumble. Once the arm starts moving forward, if the ball is released while the arm is still moving, it’s going to be a forward pass. This is true if contact causes the ball to come out. This is also true if, for example, the passer is contacted and, as a result, the ball actually goes backward. Once the arm starts moving forward, only two things can happen: Either the ball doesn’t come out, and the QB remains a runner, or the ball comes out, and it’s a forward pass. In other words, if the ball comes out after the arm starts to move forward, it cannot be a fumble. There is also the “when in doubt,” which, in my view, tilts the playing field toward pass vs. fumble. Finally, there is a philosophy at work among officials that we simply don’t want to award cheap turnovers, let alone a fluke TD. So, taking all of these things into account, if I were calling this play, seeing what I saw in the video (which may well not be the same thing the R saw on the field), I would have called this an incomplete forward pass. But as an observer, there is no way I would ever downgrade the R for his call on this play, even though I would have called it differently with the information I have. Ultimately, he made a judgment call, and his judgment was well within the realm of reasonable. Those who think everything on the field is black and white, with no gray areas, should realize through this discussion that sometimes there’s plenty of gray out there. I think one thing we can all take from this play is that sometimes it’s fairly simple out on the field. But sometimes the guys in stripes are asked to do a virtually impossible job. And this play looks like one of those.

Yeah, I got that - and totally appreciate the difference. A bad call is one the officials should’ve gotten and simply didn’t. This wasn’t one of those plays. You, an experienced official, had to read up on the specific text of the relevant rules and watch/rewatch the play in order to analyze it. The ref here had to make his call right away without any such benefit. I think a lot of fans don’t fully appreciate the difficulty of that. And most of us come with a strong bias. They just want to get it right and some calls just aren’t simple or black/white. As I said with my first comment, I can see why he made the call he did. Thankfully for everybody, it wasn’t decisive in the game. BTW, I should add that we’re really lucky to have you posting here. GID is a much better place because you’re here. You bring knowledge, experience, and insights on the rules and how they apply to specific plays that nobody else really can. Thank you!

Some alumni of note from Tri-West: racer Jeff Gordon (4 time NASCAR champ and cross-country runner at Tri-West); gymnast Bridget Sloan (Olympic medalist and World Champion) and writer (and Wabash grad) Dan Simmons (one of the most renown writers in the country…if you saw the miniseries “The Terror”, you’ve seen a bit of his work).

Will be decided next Saturday. I guess the IHSAA isn't doing 2/4/6 and 1/3/5 anymore. If things work out for SW Ind, it might be cool to have 2/3/4 on one day...

2 SIAC AND 1 PAC Team in Semi-State. Congrats to SW Indiana!

I knew it was some directional.

I will bet anything that Eastbrook doesn't win.

Nice to see them beat Tampa today

Completely agree!

Let me reiterate, it was not a bad call. In my opinion, it was not the correct call. But that doesn’t mean it was a bad call. They are not the same thing. I want that to come across very clearly.

If they had Carson Steele in the backfield, they’d be 8-2 (ducks…).

the IHSAA announced that they are rescheduling next weeks semi-state games for Saturday at the following locations: Lafayette – Merrillville vs Westfield Michigan City vs Zionsville Indianapolis – Center Grove vs Ben Davis Indianapolis Lutheran vs Tri High Bloomington – Cathedral vs New Albany Mt Vernon (Fortville) vs Evansville Memorial South Bend – New Prairie vs Northridge Andrean vs Eastside Terre Haute – Gibson Southern vs Tri-West Indianapolis Scecina vs Evansville Mater Dei Kokomo – Indianapolis Brebuf vs Mishawaka Marian North Judson vs Adams Central Oh wait, this is Indiana. Never mind.

I'll submit that the braindead move was bringing in Dinardo.

I have said numerous times (and probably will get ROASTED by the smaller and/or PP supporters) in the SAC because of my opinion.....BUT The SAC as constructed for FB is only of benefit to those schools whose enrollment is 4A or below. The occasional Wayne win streak in the tournament should not have been surprising, they play UP in the Conference. 2A Luers/ 3A Concordia/ 4A Dwenger (Success Factor 5A) are the primary beneficiaries of the Conference alignment whenever the tournament starts, regardless of their regular season records. Homestead and Carroll are a prime example what "better" competition can and will do for a program. Both of these programs, though dominants in the Northeast Hoosier, weren't always the hands-down favorite to ever win a conference championship. Ofttimes they beaten by East Noble/DeKalb/Norwell/New Haven/Bellmont. And once the tournament began, it was almost always expected that either one or both of them couldn't defeat the Snider juggernaut awaiting them in Sectionals. Those days are long gone with their playing "stiffer" competition in at the top of the SAC. To suggest that each of these programs wouldn't benefit from dropping the middling SAC schools and picking up a more robust schedule across Northern and Central IN is fool hearty. Mix in Snider/Dwenger/Northrop and yes though they will initially LOSE MORE than they win, it would give all the more 'successful' SAC programs a better indication of what is need for improvement across the board to win and compete with the upper echelon of IN schools in their respective classes. I cannot see what is gained by weekly shootouts with a cross-town rival in a closed conference that prepares you for success. It does give you a local sense of superiority, but cannot ever give you a sense of what the HCC/Duneland/NLC/MIC and various independents are doing. The tournament becomes an eye opening experience in speed, diversity of offense/defensive schemes, and ultimately exits by the "top" SAC teams in the larger classes. Those in the lower classes of the SAC have had a season-long opportunity to take bumps and bruises and translate that into success during the tournament, it (SAC) is to THEIR benefit it seems. Ask yourself this honest question? Of the SAC teams that entered the 2021 IHSAA FB tournament; which loss is the most unexpected? Every team in the SAC was dispatched within or around the time we all thought they would/could lose. The ONLY loss that was shocking? Eastside going on the road and methodically imposing their will in the Luers contest at the Sectional Final. It has become quite clear at this point that the Eastside win over Luers, was NOT a fluke. They are a formidable 2A team in 2021. Just my .02 Cents

After watching the SAC's streak of having a semi-state representative for 34 years in a row come to an end tonight, it's only appropriate to bring up the topic of restructuring the conference in the off season. Teams from the Indy area proved last night that they are on a different level. This has nothing to do with the players, but everything to do with the programs. The growth of Indy area football programs have come along way over the last 20 years, and now it's just a matter of figuring out how to catch up. It took several years, but the HCC has finally caught up with the MIC. It only took a few years, but the SAC elevated the level of play from Homestead and Carroll. Now the question is, who can elevate the level of play from the SAC? The answer is simple. Restructure the conference so that teams can schedule at least one team outside the division during the regular season. How many would be ideal? Three or four? Who knows, but one game would be a good start. I'd like to see Snider, Homestead, and Carroll have the opportunity to schedule a team from the MIC, a team from the HCC, and a team from the region on an annual basis. Allow Dwenger to knock heads with Chatard. Luers possibly with LCC or one of those teams they used to tangle with from Ohio. That would do the trick. Instead of hitting a brick wall in the post season, our teams would know what to expect and know what to do moving forward to get to a championship level of play. This is no longer becoming a matter of opinion. It's becoming a matter of fact. If the SAC want's become a player again at a statewide level, they need to ditch the "ease of scheduling" line of thought and get rid of the 'island conference.' Twenty years ago, this Carroll team might have had what it took to reach state. Twenty years ago, this Dwenger team might have had what it took to reach state. This isn't twenty years ago. It's a new era. Make a change or get used to the status quo.

This is the game I'm most looking forward to watching next week. Phil Mason is further cementing his legacy as he leads the City Wolves into the Semi-State round for the 3rd time in the past 5 years. This time beautiful Ames Field gets it's turn to host a Semi-State as the Wolves previously traveled to Kokomo and New Palestine. Looks like game time temp will be around 31 degrees with winds coming off the Lake at 5-10 mph. That should't be bad enough weather to create too much discomfort for Zionsville. Looking at the game from City's perspective, the Wolves will need to clean up the mistakes on offense if they want any chance of pulling off the upset. Some sloppy play in th 2nd half and a poorly timed INT with under a minute to go in the 4th really helped Valpo keep it close and force OT. Sophomore QB Tyler Bush has a thrown a few INT's the past two weeks. Those INT's are at least easier to overcome against Mishwawka / Valpo than a Zionsville team that will likely flip turnovers into points. To the Wolves beneift they do have a full arsenal of playmakers to throw at the Eagles defense. 6'1 Sr WR Giovani Laurent has great hands and can stretch the secondary. 5'8 Sr. O'Marion Hatch is the speedster that MC will try to get the ball to in the open field. He can move is a threat to take it to the EZ on any play. City has a good thunder and lightning combo in the running game with 5'9 210 Sr. Racion Anderson and 6'0 180 Soph Jaden Hart. Hart is the most talented of the group and already has reported offers from Iowa State, Minnesota, Purdue, and Syracuse. The defensive line faired well against a much bigger Valpo O-Line last week; however, Zionsville will present their biggest test of the season when Joey Tanona and Joe Cannedy take the field. Unfortunately, I can envision a scenario in which City holds Zionsville to under 30 points. I was caught off guard when saw Harrell picking this as a 1 point City win. Logically, I just can't see a HCC battle tested Zionsville team losing to Michigan City. I'm hoping City's offense can keep them in the game and pull out a 31-28 type of game, but my head is thinking Zionsville will take this one by about 42-28. Either way, I'm excited to see Phil Mason's offense and Ames Field showcased in the Semi-State round.

Well we in the Region have been looking forward to this day since Merrillville and Valpo were sent packing last year. In this years version, both Merrillville and Michigan City are on fire. Both teams have speed, athletes at the right position, and the ability to beat you on offense in the air or on the ground. Same goes for defense, speed and athletes everywhere, except Merrillville is more multiple on defense with their four man front while Michigan City does not hide that they will dare a team to throw on them playing 9 players in the box and man to man all over the field. Merrillville has the best interior lineman by far in the region, Kenneth Grant a one man wrecking crew. I have no doubt that both teams are ready to battle. Weakness for both teams, but more so for Michigan City is that they have been able to win while committing many turnovers and penalties. Looking forward to the DAC representing in possibly two classes.

Is it my imagination or has the criteria for roughing the passer changed this year at all levels? I'm all for protecting the QB but I've seen some ordinary football hits that have gotten flagged this season. It makes me think they should just put the red vest on the QBs and make 'em off limits.

The game is not at Andrean! It is at Eastside! I was listening to the commentators on the Eastside game week say this, if it’s Andrean it’s a home game. Plus Maxpreps and Harrell say it’s at Eastside too. Also, Laban Davis is the real deal. Bowen this, Bowen that, the Eastside QB will be the best player on the field on Friday and I expect a Blazer victory.

Crap. Lured in to this by an old, retired legal referee.

Haha definitely not the prettiest game for quarterbacks! But always liked East as well, my uncle is good friends with Coach Chitty. 2013 was great to see East take down Dwenger, that was my senior year (wasn’t a football player, played lacrosse and soccer) but went in with now looking back blind ignorance and hope of hanging with McLaurin and Cathedral. But Coach Gilbert followed through on telling that senior class they’d be at LOS their final season; and look what he’s built now. Had him as my Government teacher, absolutely great guy. Hope they name the field after him when he decides to hang it up.

MAN - WHAT A GAME! Very happy that I choose to attend this in person. First of all- hats off the Lawrenceburg Tigers. Having seen them the past 2 years, I knew that they had a hungry bunch of seniors and that their QB was a gamer - but I honestly just didn't think they had what it took to run with this Titan squad...and honestly, at 28-7 in the 3rd, I was thinking this was going to be another GS cakewalk (and if I'm being honest, I wonder if the Titans themselves didn't breathe a little sigh themselves) But, ol "Mr. Mo" is a funny thing, and as the Tiger comeback started to roll, you could feel the energy in the stadium start to shift. It made for a very entertaining last 12 minutes or so. What a job #63 and #70 did blocking that beast from Lawrenceburg...not sure he had a sack the entire game (although he did affect numerous plays)...#43 from GS was EVERYWHERE on defense, and even caught a TD pass and did some H-back blocking, and then #13 in the backfield for the Titans sure seemed to rip off some runs right when GS could feel it slipping. Kuddos to the Titans - sure is an exciting time for you all and I hope you win the whole thing.

Thank you for your support! I've got almost 60 years experience observing Officials and analyzing their calls. My feedback has always been short and to the point.

I always enjoy your in-depth analysis. 🤣

2021- Nico’s 30 yard FG to beat East Central, 17-14, as Memorial advances to their 4th Final 4 in 5 years.

Tom Helfrich (owner of TriState) was quite the late model dirt racer in his day as well.

Thanks.

Maybe they should name 'em the Washington Georges.

Agree. Cincinnati. I think they fail the overall eye test, but it's hard to look past their win in South Bend.

I won’t have to tell them. They know that there will always be fans who will think it was a bad call. That is the nature of fans.

LOL. Tell them the fans who saw it live thought it was a bad call... You know, the whole "no cheap TO- no fluke TD" thing..

DiNardo was a great player and a terrible coach.

Jeff Gordon used to race in the South Gibson area at TriState Speedway in Haubstadt weekly starting when he was a 14yr old.

SIAC regional notes -Coach Goebels and Joey Pierre. -Coach Hurley in November. That is all.

I haven’t…..I remain confused about what is happening next year.

As I understand it next years realignment will only include the 2020, 2021 seasons. Memorial will be 4a for the next two years. "Tournament success factor points accumulated in 2020-21 and 2021-22 will be applied toward the next two-year cycle." https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/high-school/2021/04/02/ihsaa-delays-reclassification-one-year-due-enrollment-numbers/7065602002/

Kind of a boring game, think that had to do with Virginia’s starting quarterback being out. Irish got on top and were never threatened. You guys are right, while most teams keep their foot on the gas BK likes to go conservative and play it safe, at least in my opinion. I love Kyren Williams, he is so damn tough to bring down and run to watch. Also liked what I saw from the young safeties converted from cornerback/wide receiver (Ramon Henderson and Xavier Watts). They’ll be needed next season. And the frosh rb Diggs could be a beast next year replacing Williams. Irish should finish 11-1 and go to a good bowl and hopefully win it!!! I think when it’s all said and done ND will be one of the final 2 out. On another note, could this be one of the easiest schedules Notre Dame has ever had?

We might screw around and up being in 5A (I hope not)

Gibson Southern....Good luck next week at SS. Great regional championship game played by Titans and Tigers. Respect for both.

Understanding ur a David n having no fear of goliath..get bigger..faster..n stronger..so when u see goliath..its no issues..

Thanks SEAL_63!

Southern Indiana goes 3-0 in regionals

Well, everyone can chime in here until there're 'blue' in the face, but none of these many years of discussion about this topic, and on this forum, can not and will not go anywhere until such a time, that the public and non-public school corporations of the SAC have decided this is what they want to do. Such changes expressed here have no horsepower to see something accomplished at all. There are only two Interscholastic sanctioned sports in the SAC, where ten schools are represented. All of the other sports, with the exception of men's and women's basketball, have only eight schools represented; I.E., Homestead and Carroll are not part of the SAC for those, and as I believe, this is the way it was originally designed. To formulate a different plan, would obviously take a bucu load of campaign lobbying before achieving just a consideration. I have no additional input for even beginning such an effort, whereby, I'm only pointing out the obvious.

Looks like it is at U of I 730pm. Thats what time it was for Linton couple years ago. Great facilities! And let me tell you the Scecina crowd throws a tailgate party! Treated me like a king even wearing a Miner Hoodie. Great concessions too. I was sorta hoping I was gonna fly in for a Miner game, but to the Victor goes the Spoils. I checked in a LaQuinta very close and decent enough for a football game with kids and the Hotel bus dropped me off. Great experience and Go Wildcats!

Word to the jack-o-lantern world IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH FRIDAY NIGHT. I don't know how elde to spell it out! Special Teams no matter what part doesn't count towards anything. Yiu can keep spouting but IT DOES NOT MATTER! Why do you keep bringing up a Friday night game. Let alone a Saturday JV game in the last week of the season?! I know you have an agenda but jeeze whiz give it a rest, you sound so incompentent it's not even funny (coming from someone that was a parent of a son that played in the Mid-State Conference) just give it a rest.

It depends on the type of play. If the offensive holding occurs on a pass play, it’s enforced from the previous spot, unless the foul occurred behind the previous spot, in which case it’s enforced from the spot of the foul. On a running play, offensive holding is enforced from the end of the run, unless the spot of the foul is behind the end of the run, in which case it’s enforced from the spot of the foul. Hey, if this stuff was easy, anyone could do it. 😂

I’ll say it again - it can be done. The IHSAA and it’s member schools choose not to. Other states seem to manage those obstacles you identified. I can buy the idea that schools want to host their sectional to have a home court/field advantage. I don’t think that reason is as common for events after sectional. Greenfield-Central, Martinsville, and Frankfort all host 1A or 2A regionals in boys basketball. All 3 are in different classes and are only guaranteed to NOT have a home court advantage. Their team could also be playing elsewhere the same day/night. It’s been a while since a boys basketball team played in a semi-state they hosted. Many schools enjoy hosting tournament events, very few of which choose to because of a belief that they will have a home court/field advantage. Seymour, Huntington North, Lafayette Jeff, Washington, Southport, Logansport, Elkhart…not a criticism of their athletic teams, but not many are making deep tournament runs and playing at home. I do think the IHSAA needs to create a greater incentive for schools to host regional and semi-state events. If a fully neutral site hurts attendance from the IHSAA’s perspective, why do they play the state finals at Lucas Oil instead of letting schools play at home? They played the championship games at home sites from 1973-1976. Football is one of the few IHSAA tournaments that do not play regional and semi-state rounds at neutral sites. I would like to see that change now that more adequate facilities are available.

No?

The President doesn't have influence on gas prices? The very people who during the Obama Administration where gas prices were up for so long said that the President doesn't control oil prices and who were silent when President Trump opened up drilling in the US and encouraged the US to become more energy-independent resulting in record low pump prices - are now begging President Biden to help. While he's considering shutting down a major supply line in Michigan. I don't think he can be this bad for the country by accident...... https://nypost.com/2021/11/08/11-senate-dems-urge-biden-to-ease-soaring-gas-prices/ Among the senators who signed were Vermont’s Patrick Leahy, Connecticut’s Richard Blumenthal and former presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren. This call for action comes after the White House admitted during a press briefing Monday that the president is considering shutting down the L5 pipeline from Michigan to Canada. Deputy press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre admitted Monday that the Army Corps of Engineers is “preparing an environmental impact to look through this.” “This irresponsible action will hurt farmers, businesses, and families,” the letter says. “President Biden has already done enough to weaken America’s energy security and international alliances, and the consequences of terminating Line 5 would only heighten these growing challenges.” Politico reported Thursday that the Department of Energy has opened an “ongoing discussion” about the impact Line 5 would have on energy markets. White House climate adviser Gina McCarthy met with environmental groups on the matter last month where an attendee suggested a decision could occur following a vote on the trillion-dollar Build Back Better Act.