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We needed another smartass new member. I swear to God we did

No but it kept them up next cycle

Can't disagree more....this quote is beyond stupid. Bumping up a program without a title is a joke. If AC's enrollement moves them up...so be it, but to SF a team up that has not won a title is a joke.

Can't agree more....this is beyond stupid. "Congratulations on building a program at a small public school that is on the cusp of winning a state title. We are now going to bump you up a class even though you haven't won that title." Sincerely, hugs ang kisses, the IHSAA

Completely agree with you BTF. if you are so determined to identify best team in State, go back to 5 classes by combining 5A and 6A. It would essentially capture the top teams in State 90% + of the time.

East Central rushed for 397 yards last year vs. New Prairie. This year's team is better and more versatile, with Brotherton moving to slot, WR, and splitback to allow Maxwell to get carries. Also they have added Minges as another threat in the backfield. It's not just the RB's but its also their use of unbalanced and 8-9 man OL formations that make them so tough to matchup with. Coach Meiners has a lot of talent and he does a great job of using them in creative ways. And their defense is very solid as well. I'm curious to see how NorthWood matches up with them. Oh. That makes sense.

It should be an invitation not a mandate. I don't think you should have to play in this tournament if you don't want to. According to some fans on the EC v Northwood thread would find it to be worth the challenge. Most of these teams are highly rated nationally. There is a legitimate chance that the winner could end in the top 10 of the national rankings. Some years this tournament would have resulted in a potential "national title" Most of the teams that would be considered for this tournament would be repeat invitation recipients. BD, CG, Cathedral etc would likely be considered or up for consideration yearly.

You knew you were gonna play Luers too? Your fanduel has to have a wicked amount of money in it that could buy a $hit ton of high quality H2O with those future picks.

There's actually a cartoon about that the South Bend Tribune put out regarding that. Overall, Penn has a slight advantage over Snider in the win column, but you're right, there was a period where Penn would blow through the regular season unblemished before running into Snider. The 90's I believe. Ironically, isn't that when Penn was winning state championships? This is how fans used to travel...... Snider at Penn 2003. Don't really wanna discuss the game though.

A relegation system can't work with a geographically flawed all-in, unseeded tournament.

So, would this Open tournament replace the regular tournament for those 8 teams, or would be after the regular one? If the former, then those 8 teams potentially only have a 3-week postseason, when the others still have 5 or 6. Also, any idea who would pick the teams? The IHSAA won't even seed the sectionals now, let alone pick the best 8 in the state.

Eastern Hancock most likely benefited from this happening in the past back in 2013. Scecina moving up via SF, despite not winning a title in two straight appearances, cleared the way in the south for EH. Tri-Central beat EH anyway, but SF cleared the deck for EH to have a shot at LOS which likely would have been filled by Scecina had they not been SF'd. Linton had a red and blue ring, respectively, in their back-to-backs in 2015 and 2016 which then saw them SF'd and then "enrollmented (trademark pending)."

I suspect Lysander will be out of his coma soon and he would know much better than I.

Yes, boys soccer and baseball would be very competitive in the HHC, and those are the two sports they have been the most competitive overall. Boys soccer won the Sagamore conference title this fall, their 2nd in a row. And baseball were LCC regional champions this past spring in 3A. And I don't think every HHC school offers soccer yet, looking at you Clinton Central.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Best of luck to your Panthers on Saturday!

I wasn't talking about SF per se, but the idea of a team getting bumped without winning a state title. It happened with Scecina and no one complained about it ... just thought it was an unfortunate consequence, but as you point out, most folks didn't have an issue with it because it got rid of LCC and taking out Scecina was seen as icing on the cake and not a travesty. Yes, SF is flawed in its current form. As I pointed out in the post above, and as others who were part of the IFCA proposal will tell you, SF was not really approached with the idea of detail or precision. Four year rolling cycles as opposed to two-year fixed cycles would have been a much better way of addressing things with much less collateral damage. That would also open up the idea of addressing the fact that teams with same points aren't necessarily the same. As an example, take the current situation of 6 points ... across a two year cycle, that could represent three different teams: 4-2, 2-4, and 3-3 across a two-year cycle in how points were accumulated. Under the current form, an argument could likely be made that 2-4 is in ascendancy although no guarantee that it's not a single class issue, 4-2 may well be more of a single class, and 3-3 could be an argument of foundational program ... although, with two-year cycles, still hard to determine. And thus the dilemma upon us ... the IHSAA doesn't really distinguish between the 6-pointers ... they are all considered better-than-average. Not optimal and possibly not fair, but consistent and easy to implement ... which as an alternative to potential lawsuits, is pretty much what the IHSAA was looking for. Part of the biggest problem with SF is that it was backward-engineered and implemented to solve a specific problem. In the tight-focused approach, they didn't realize that sometimes the traps set for one type of prey often catch other unintended entities just wandering around the same fields. I completely agree with you about Pioneer getting caught up in SF, although probably lesser of an issue for Pioneer as Pioneer was a high-performing program for years, so it was more in a position to absorb that hit than say a team like North Decatur making to LOS this year and getting a blue ring and heading to 2A. Nonetheless, it still will have some (negative) impact on Pioneer's program. Would like to see the IHSAA move to a four-year cycle which would be a much better step in the right direction to minimizing damage while also allowing for movement of teams that can compete at a higher level.

I would guess several.

https://www.indystar.com/videos/sports/high-school/2023/11/17/ihsaa-football-semistate-east-central-dominates-new-palestine-49-0/71628352007/

I think you’re missing it. As I read your post, you don’t object to the concept of the SF. Rather, it’s the definition of “success” that you find “beyond stupid.” Am I reading that correctly?

NW lost to Northridge the first time around as they didn't run the ball...at all. That was an issue in the first half of the season. Since that loss, they have realized that they actually can have some success in the running game...which has opened up the passing game. Warsaw...that game was interesting. They were in that game...until turnovers in the second half. That was a pretty bad game...Warsaw hands down played a great game that week. I know people say...you haven't seen EC play...and I haven't...I will say DB is by far the hardest position to play at any level of football. I think NW's passing game will be effective as rarely does a high school have more than 2 maybe 3 good DB's. I'm not saying NW will win this game..I am saying, that they have the ability to keep up with EC scoring. If NW can at least slow down EC running game and make them pass the ball a bit more...that could cause turnovers...and that is what NW will need to keep it close.

State Law!

Would they have one sport that would stand out in the HHC? I'm not familiar with their whole athletic program. Soccer? Baseball? Frankfort and Benton Central would fit in the HHC, much better than they do in the Hoosier or the new conference. The Hot Dogs would certainly save on travel in the HHC.

Warren Central played BD Tough, Snider Whipped Warren Central, Snider barely survived Mishawaka. Penn easily beat Mishawaka, Crown Point Barely beat Penn. Does this mean CP and BD are about even? No Transitive Properties do not work in football.

And HSE almost beat Brownsburg at Brownsburg in week 9, while Westfield beat HSE both at home and away. I'm not saying Westfield was as good as Brownsburg, but they were not 30 points worse. Just one of those games where everything went wrong for one team and right for the other team. You don't win 11 games with the schedule that they play in the HCC plus LC and New Pal if your not a good team. You are correct 17-0 at halftime.

Don't need to upgrade, Vicki Vallencourt upgraded it for me. You got me on the team, maybe next year.

It's too bad the Lions OC couldn't fly back to Chicago with the team and take over HC duties with Flus being demoted to strictly DC.

Yep. It was a failed attempt to appease the opponents of the move to class basketball. But it wasn't well-attended and after a few years enough schools expressed that exact sentiment so the IHSAA killed it.

@Cappy No doubt. It was a great environment even on TV. Best of luck to the Vikings on Saturday!!

Thanks for the information. I think we can all appreciate why Arizona went to that format. In my opinion, the only teams that would accept are 6A teams, they have nothing to lose. For levels 1A through 5A, I think financial matters come into play. For the record, as a fan, I would LOVE to watch this play out. I just don't see anyone lower than 6A jumping on board.

Arizona began this idea because of a 4A team's (Saguaro HS) dominance of the 4A division in Arizona from 2006 to 2018 where they won 11 out of 13 state championships including a run of 6 in a row from 2013-2018. There was the possibility for the first 2-3 years of "The Open Division" for the "once-in-a-lifetime class" to have to play in the Open but they have since tried to account for that by adding a multiplier to their formula that increases the chances 5 and 6A teams are selected instead of 4A teams who, unlike Saguaro, don't have as much of a chance against the big dogs. This is FAR from the dumbest idea ever. For the record, Saguaro won the Open division in 2021 as well becoming the first 4A to do so in Arizona knocking off some heavy hitters along the way much like some believe East Central can do to some of our heavy hitters. I think this would be a pretty awesome concept to see in Indiana. I do like the idea someone mentioned above about having to "accept" the invite to play in "The Open Division" especially if they're from a class below 5A. And based on final records after the regular season, their current postseason finishes, and the good ole eye test, my Open Division this year if I had a seat on the committee would have been... 1. Ben Davis 6A 2. Center Grove 6A 3. Brownsburg 6A 4. East Central 4A 5. Indianapolis Chatard 3A 6. Crown Point 6A 7. Fort Wayne Snider 5A 8. Westfield 6A

Like him or not, blocking him would be blocking a large chunk of topics on this forum. Like DT, he's able to spark conversations and debates.

Part of me agrees but getting to watch HH/GS in a semi state game was pretty special.

I don't see the point of winning a state championship then putting your team in position to lose a game the following week. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

You were 10 and don't remember the last Indiana High School Single Class Basketball Tournament ever conducted? What type of childhood did you have? Was the abuse really bad? It seems you never recovered (the affiliation with Purdont...) Yikes!

Odds are once in 2A AC will be in the same sectional as Luers every year. Could provide some exciting matchups!

The golden age of rock n roll!

Anyone can be whatever they want to be on an anonymous internet message board. The best thing you can do and what most others on the Forum do is just 1. ignore it, laugh about him in private and let him talk to himself. 2. Block him and eventually you won't even be tempted to look at his drivel. Or third and foremost, just continue to be one of the bozos who give him the attention he craves.

Dumbest.Idea.Ever. I can't believe a State actually does that. I mean, it makes sense for the biggest schools ...what you are describing is essentially their State tournament anyway. But let's say you are a once-in-a-lifetime class and you have a chance to win your 4A title - but then the State elects you to play up against Center Grove. That is suppose to be rewarding?!?

Not sure you can compare anything I said to what he said yesterday. Shocking you'd even bring that up and make a comparison. But I don't know you from Adam, so why be surprised I guess. I have much respect for the East Central program. Is there anything wrong with me rooting for a team that no one is giving an iota of a chance of winning? The disrespect on this board is posters not giving these Northwood kids a chance. There's always a chance. Go Panthers.

Nah, I picked 38-17 when this thread opened. No going back now.

Extremely doubtful you would see Crown Point 21 Ben Davis 0. It might be possible but it's not probable, Ben Davis is far too talented to be shutout. Also Ben Davis isn't in their first ever State Championship game like Center Grove was when they played Penn. Ben Davis is pretty balanced maybe a little more to the passing side of the scale. They have 2023 yds rushing 27 TD's (5 Fumbles lost) and 3042 yds passing 36 TD's (6 Int's). Offensively they have turned the ball over 11 times, very quick RB and a QB that can run and throw as well as 3 WR's with great speed. Defensively the Giants are very good they have 129.5 TFL's, 57 sacks, 23 Int's (4 for TD), 9 Fumble recoveries (2 for TD), and 1 safety. The front seven are very quick and they can sub in multiple players along the D-line, LB's are very active and have some Int's too. In the secondary they have 3 very good DB's Zackery (4 Int's), Contreras (5 Int's) and Falke (3 Int's). They are a very fast and aggressive defense that brings a lot of pressure and because of depth look to get better as the game goes along. Personally I wouldn't game plan to score 42 points if I was Crown Point because it is not likely to happen. I would focus more on sustaining long drives ending with points. The question I would say is how well does Crown Point match Ben Davis' speed and can they manage that speed. 21.77 is Ben Davis average margin of victory on the year. Teams that have matched their speed have kept it to 3 points (Brownsburg, Lawrence Central, Cathedral, Center Grove, Warren Central) with the exception of Lawrence North. Teams that couldn't match their speed ranged from 21 to 62 points. If their defense gets multiple turnovers it could get ugly like it did against Lawrence North.

More proof that it ain't over 'till it's over, especially when the Bears are involved. Or maybe the "legal" betting parlors wished the Lions to the win.

Man... TGD is cooking with gas!

I still have Carroll up there with, at least within the ballpark, of Crown Point and Penn. Too much stock is being put into their loss to Warsaw. Just like many on here thinking Snider is average since Mishawaka took them to the wire. Those are hard offenses to defend. Warsaw's time of possession on one drive was higher than Carroll's for the entire game. Again, posters are putting too much stock into "one" game. Warren Central almost beat Ben Davis. EVERY team has a week or two where they just don't play up to par. Some are too blind to see that. I have a lot of respect for the time you put into your rankings. At least you throw it out there. I'm still going to take the easy road and put mine out there after this weekend. By the way, I still think Brownsburg is the best team in the state. But I'll give credit where credit is due. I'm not sure anything can change my mind this weekend about not having them in at least the #2 position. As of right now, I'm not sure how you measure the gap between Ben Davis and Crown Point...........unless we're going by how many miles they are away from Indianapolis. I really don't feel like getting into another transitive property debate. I'm just hoping for a good game, as I know you are too.

I was told from mid-season on that I had Crown Point overrated and they were not a top 10 team…”more like 12-15” was the quote I believe. Much of the same was said about Penn. ”No way they are better than Carroll!” This will likely piss people off but let’s not forget that Brownsburg TRUCKED Westfield on the road and had BD on the ropes before losing a heartbreaker. What could that possibly say about the gap from BD to Crown Point?

all of the top 4a was busy gang banging 5a when memorial got to the party :L

I'm not upset your rankings are your rankings (as are other peoples opinions/rankings). East central absolutely has an opportunity to crown themselves 4A State Champions. East Central had more than 1 quality win over Moeller. Harrison (OH) was a solid Ohio Div 2 team they lost in Regionals to Anderson (13-1 and #1 seed in Region 8 who will play Massillon Washington in the Semi-Finals to get to the Div 2 title game against likely Archbishop Hoban. They also put a running clock on Lawrenceburg (only a year removed from playing for the 3A State Title but not as good this year). Blanked Batesville who ended up losing a tight one to Heritage Hills in Regionals. Running clocked Evansville Memorial in Evansville a week after they knocked off undefeated Evansville Reitz. Shutout a solid but not great New Palestine team. They also beat a Roncalli team but similar margin as Cathedral and Louisville Male. Would they have an unblemished record playing Cathedral, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, or Center Grove's schedule probably not. They would hold their own with that schedule though, they play who they had to play in conference play and beefed up their non-conference games (not their fault Roncalli wasn't as strong this year as the last 2 years). They still played and beat quality opponents along the way, and left no doubt against the teams they should beat. Regardless the only title they will be able to get is the 4A title. You'll be thoroughly impressed with how they play on Saturday. Northwood will trot out some athletes, but East central will be up to the task and put their best foot forward. They are very well coached too which does not get mentioned much. The awe of Brotherton and Ringer usually gets mentioned, but Maxwell had a pretty darn good game against New Palestine.

Everyone assumes another 4A sized INDY school (Cathedral) can arguably be the best team in the State almost ANNUALLY but hardly anyone is willing to grant that another 4A sized school (East Central) which is actually a Cincinnati suburban school (when you drill down just a bit....where some of the best football in the country is played) can't EVER possibly be the best team in Indiana...or, at least, contend for it. Let's be clear, CalPreps has them #2 in Indiana currently. 4A New Pal was more than likely the best team in the state just a few short years ago - Indy suburbs. God forbid a smaller school outside of the Indy metro might be any good. Most everything I read here (and from the peanut brains on Facebook) reflects the overall myopia towards 6A, Indy, Ft.Wayne and the Region (God forbid). An added irony is that those in the Cincy Metro most likely chuckle at we Indiana hayseeds when we scoff that a Cincy suburban team...the best team in the Cincy tri-state (who's address just happens to be in Indiana) somehow just doesn't measure up.

I would bet my house on east central to take CP by 3 touchdowns or more

That has now made the Final Four in Ohio Div. 1.