Leaderboard

Quite a few on this forum thought we wouldn’t get to this weekend with HS foootball. I was optimistic but had my doubts. 95% of scheduled high school games in Indiana were played. We still don’t know all the answers for this pandemic, but congratulations to every member school, coaches, staff and players on staying disciplined and being a valuable source of entertainment in your communities. Let’s hope 2021 is closer to normal(whatever that will be) and we are all in the stands cheering our student athletes.

You need a new hobby. I understand stamp collecting and basket weaving are quite a challenge. You're a troll and not a really good one.

Actually I agree CYO is a huge advantage but not in the same way you have put it. I will use Roncalli as an example (I have no affiliation with them). Lets say 6 of the feeder schools for Roncalli have Cadet football. Holy Name, Nativity, St. Barnabas, S.S. Francis and Clare, St. Jude, and Our Lady of Greenwood. Roncalli runs a Spread No-Huddle offense and a 4-2-5 defense. Holy Name could be running the Pro formation and a 3-4, Nativity an I-Formation and 4-4, St. Barnabas a spread and 3-3, St. Jude a spread and 4-2-5, SSFC runs a pistol and 4-4, and OLofG run a Wing T and a 4-4. Now I agree they are taught fundamentals and also see many different looks. Where it becomes a solid advantage is the number of players from each team that have learned their positions and move up to the HS and create depth and or battle for positions. Now what Center Grove Bantam has done that Publics schools can emulate to a certain degree (CG Bantam is big). The big advantage is they can set a play book with the Wing T and 4-3 defense the kids learn it from 2nd through 6th grade. They also run the same formations at the middle schools. By the time a Carson Steele (just an example) hits High School he knows those basic plays and the scheme like muscle memory. Sure the expand upon the play book and learn more intricate plays, but the know the basics of the system. This is a model most Public schools should use and yes it does take a lot of work. The other key is keeping them out for the team as they filter from youth to middle school and then to HS. Of course Bantam isn't the only thing at CG Coach Moore has done. He has also done a lot with strength and speed training.

Does anyone else see that this is a problem? We have the same 4 champions in 6A and P/P are over represented in State Titles compared to the number of P/P schools in the state. If you remove the Big 4 in 6A and all P/P from State Title leaders, here is your list: Sheridan 9 Penn 5 Hobart 4 Jimtown 4 Tri-West 4 Franklin Central 4 No public school under 6A has been able to maintain consistent dominance in any level like the P/P schools and the Big 4 in 6A. This is a problem that needs addressed. I think the answer is moving up those P/P schools from 3A-5A into 6A and 1A-2A into 4A. Because I think Cathedral or Roncalli would have had a chance to win 6A and Luers could have beat Hobart in 4A. Why can't the P/P schools "get better" instead of putting the blame on public schools? It's not like Peru can just reload with kids every year because they have minimal access to kids because of their location whereas Concordia has probably 10x the access to kids compared to Peru. I don't know.... I just think there's a problem with competitive balance when we have the same teams winning over and over again. It comes to a point where it's not about the whole "get better, quit complaining, fix your feeder program" and it's time to take a real look at how to create some competitive balance

Roncalli's quick turnaround may have surprised some, but I know a little secret. Switching back to name brand candy instead of generic has south side playgrounds bustling. Bit-O-Honey, Trolli, Tootsie Pop...........the kids now-a-days prefer the good stuff.

Agree with Grover.... I have always been an advocate of a "clearninghouse" system. That counted the number of kids that participate in ANY extracurricular (sports, music, etc). That is your "participant" enrollment. For PP's and affluent public schools this number will be near or over 90% of their total enrollment. For schools with struggling "demographics" (however you want to determine that)....it may be 50% of total enrollment or lower. The issue isn't the kids that publics/PPs count....the issue it the kids that PP's don't "have to count".

I have first hand knowledge of two Christian schools. At one a "statement of faith" must be signed. At the other a student needed to sign a declaration to be open to and not divisive toward Christian doctrine. Don't sign, don't get in. Sign and lie and the student would be removed (with a process of course). Several students that would have made us better at both schools were turned down for admission for numerous reasons, as well as athletes expelled or asked to leave for breaking rules. You can believe me or not. The schools have an obligation to the hundreds of families who pay good money to send their children to the p/p schools to keep the environment to the families expectations. Again, believe it or not, winning state championships is pretty far down on the list of reasons why parents send their kids to private schools.

The CYO system is a huge advantage. Not only do those kids play together for many years but they are able to learn the same offense/defense as the HS program while being taught excellent fundamentals. That said, broadcasters always talk about the great Center Grove youth program in the same way. Pioneer too, I think. Maybe towns/public schools have built great youth programs thru Pop Warner or USA Football which led to sustained success at the HS level-- but it takes a ton of work.

Few clarifications on Cathedral’s roster: Nathan McCahill attended Cathedral and played freshmen ball before transferring to CG for one year. He then came back and attended CHS for junior and senior years. He was a CYO kid from St. Roch. Re: all of Marion County recruiting - we have kids from over 50 middle schools in the halls of CHS. So, yes, we absolutely need to advertise across the whole town to keep our enrollment numbers up. At $15,500/annual, it is no small task getting parents to commit to that. But, by my count, there were only 3 football starters that didn’t play in the CYO. Look no farther than the CYO for dominance of the P/Ps in Cathedral, Chatard, and Roncalli. It has little to do with enrollment.

Saying an "Inexperienced assistant" replacing a HOF Coach killed a program in two seasons is the real travesty. In two years he killed the entire grade school, freshmen, and JV PROGRAMS. You make the same incorrect statement about Marsh replacing Scifres at Roncalli. If you are not actually part of the program I would suggest you take your ill informed comments elsewhere.

I am glad to see that the P/P debated has shifted away from recruiting/cheating. I can acknowledge that their is an advantage at a private school that doesn't exist at public schools. For instance, a few years ago, at my 20th reunion, we did a tour of the updated school. Included was a run down of student body information. It was stated that 91% of students at Chatard participated in at least one extra curricular activity (fine arts or sports) What I hear very clearly from this post is that fact. What I don't understand is why we can't acknowledge that the SF is at least a very large portion of the solution. It needs to be tweaked, but it is a very good start. In my opinion, there is little doubt that Chatard belongs in 4A. To answer the questions I read all the time about why Chatard doesn't volunteer to move up- why should they? Any good coach will teach the same thing, "play by the rules, and beat the guy across from you". I think we need to figure out the correct threshold to move up and stay up or go back down. Some schools are moved up because they have that one great class, others get moved up, and fail to stay up simply because of a down year (which I have heard Chatard might have next year). I think the energy and effort should be aimed there.

Sincere thank you to all of the old school GID private school supporters who ingrained in me “work harder, get better” as a response to this timeless argument. I’ve learned that if all of the other intangibles line up, and your public school team has been coached to be certain you couldn’t have been out worked, you should look forward to the chance to beat a private school.

Beating Western in overtime. Watching #71 get pancaked, didn't seem to affect his mood. https://youtu.be/pK9NZ85DiKA?t=9933

As my grandpa (God rest his soul) would have said, "F@CK OHIO!"

Watching my youngest son (freshman) score his first varsity TD. The Courier and Press caught a picture of his smile the moment after he caught it, the image is priceless to me (thanks to friends at the Courier and Press).

Wait a minute, this a laboratory experiment! We have to care!

Indeed. Grinding our arses off to make these Cathedral squads. As of now, my oldest has 3 rings as a “role player” w minimal playing time as a junior in two sports. He understands capitalism now and we’re confident he gets his run next year. It’s why I sacrifice to send him there. We’re very thankful for our Cathedral experience. Great families and heritage. Great habits. Great understanding of preparation and expectations. Been bliss the last couple days. I have many other thoughts on this topic though. I think the original post is complete dogsheet. I’ll expound later. Seems like a dig by a Roncalli guy on privates. Roncalli is absolutely not different than Cathedral other than they get archdiocese $ and have absolutely no competition for Catholic kids on the Southside.

The latter situation has been remedied.

IMHO, I don't care what Ohio does, but if it ain't broken in Indiana it don't need fixin'!😉

After almost 20 years of watching Indiana high school football, watching LOTS of the kids that I've coached over 18 seasons make their way to and through the high school field, and even a season of watching one of my daughter's perform at high school games as a member of the dance team, I finally got to see my oldest son play high school football and score his first high school points this season. Probably the least number of high school games that I've seen in a season for the last 15 years, but one that's going to be in my top football memories because of my son.

also griffin who was the 5 DB

Whiteland, Zionsville and Westfield ARE the next Center Grove. They’ll be firmly in the 6A picture annually by the middle of this decade.

Tipton has a really nice core back next season. Biggest hole is at QB but we have a sophomore to be that I think will be up for the challenge. 4/5 of the OL will return as well as 1,000 yard rusher Carter and Powell at WR with over 500 yards. Defense should be stout again especially the front 7. Replacing Pearce at WR/S will be tough but should have some guys ready to step up. Heights is on the upswing in my opinion. They have a really good sophomore group(Juniors next year). Griffey is back at QB, Tuma at Wr and Ehman at RB. After improving quite a bit this year, I think they’ll take another step next year. Gonzoron’s boy is gonna be a good one! Western will probably take a step back after losing this loaded senior class but they’ll still have some dudes and should still be solid. Northwestern will be breaking in a new coach again but not sure we see much improvement from them. Cass should be much improved in year 2 of Mannering but not sure they have the talent they are accustomed to.

If you split it again, then LN would be #16. How could it be fair for Lawrence North (2596) to go up against Carmel (5286). Let's split again... How can Pike (3208) compete with Carmel (5286)...Let's split again.

I don't see current Morton players leaving for Hammond High, but you never know. Hammond, Clark and Gavit have had zero recent success so other than the shiny new facilities (maybe that's enough?), what is the draw athletically? Excluding the "Rippy" one year fiasco, Morton has also had a much more stable coaching situation. You can keep on pushing this scenario but it isn't happening. If the NCC expands, Hanover Central and Wheeler make way more sense.

After many years trying, this is my first Catalina Wine Mixer Title. I used my PP advantages to stay ahead of the pack. After Luers failed me in miserable fashion, new comer to the party Covenant Christian pushed me over the edge. In honor of 2020, here is a rough version of the song that embodies all Catalina Wine Mixer Champions. Last but not least, DONATE TO THE GRID!

I would throw in a consolidated Hammond Morton as a potential school on the rise; specifically if their enrollment puts them in 5A.

Let's just split 6A into 32 different tournaments and give each school a state championship trophy.

I entirely misread the original question, that's what I thought I was answering. Every topic on the board these days is centered around P/P, so I must have subconsciously inserted that verbiage in Temp's question. I will go under 3.5 for both P/P champs and repeat champs. Roncalli, Cathedral, Center Grove all repeat next year. Luers, Roncalli, Cathedral all P/P champs next year.

Trump’s Disgraceful Endgame https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/11/trump-election-fraud-disgraceful-endgame/ Mr. Trump's childishness is in full display here.

WHAT A RACE TO THE END! If South Adams 2 - Point try would have been successful then we could have had co-champions. But congratulations to @LCCAlum who was on top and stayed that way for majority of the year and held off furious chases, challenges, and pickers biting at his heels. LCCAlum 279 101 captainobvious 272 108 CoachDurham 272 108 FarmerFran 272 108 Fballfan15 269 111 DonnieBaker 263 117 Mod22 263 117 gonzoron 260 120 Lc_Bears_04 258 122 footballer_02 253 127 CoachSnyder 251 129 coachanderson 247 133 skeeterman 242 138 coachmurray 241 139 Rstandish 230 150 nmsu_aggie 229 151 obi-wan 220 160 TheStatGuy 218 162 MrsStandishDB 214 166 muda69 207 173 Nowlin 175 210 warriorbroncho77 148 232 foxbat 113 267 CamB31 105 275 brvheart63 57 325 NEIfootballGuy 13 367

Cathedral loses some very talented players, but they return the bulk of their team and have several capable playmakers in waiting. They will be at least as good, and likely better, than they were this year. They are a lock in 5A. Same can be said for Roncalli. This year was just the start for Roncalli. They have had (and continue to have) a ton of talent coming up through the south deanery CYO schools recently. They get a much larger majority of their CYO kids than the other deanery catholic schools. I would throw Memorial in the mix as well, I hear they have a lot coming back next year too. Unfortunately, Chatard won't even be in the conversation in 4A next year. I think 3A goes to a public school next year. Danville should be tough again, Lawrenceburg, Heritage Hills, West Lafayette are all solid contenders, but I think Gibson Southern makes the trip and takes home the crown with their stud QB leading the way. I don't know enough about 1A or 2A to make an informed opinion, so I'm going to guess only 1 of those goes PP. I'll take the under. 3 PP champs next year.

CC was incredibly fun to watch in person and then again on TV this past weekend. As many have said, hats off to the kids (and coaches) from SA. Those kids played hard as well. As much as it is fun to watch teams and their personal schemes/identities Im more impressed to watch teams like CC and SA (and many others that I havent got to watch yet) that just play incredibly hard on every play. #17 for CC and #55 I believe for SA. Kids just played as hard as they could and as fast as they could every down. Great job to all involved.

This is just another DT hot take to try to ruffle some feathers. You could make the argument, and actually I will, make the argument, at seasons end Ben Davis was 2nd best in the MIC. 4 Semi-State appearances in 5 years. They’re fine. BD started slow due to covid, having less practice time than their opponents as they faced schools in Hendricks County. By seasons end, they were better than both teams. Then, I’m the regional they beat Carmel. Who was better in the MIC besides CG at seasons end? WC had a down year but I don’t believe they’re worse off as a program. 2 years removed from a historically great program. Won a sectional this year. This is another program that will be fine based on returning talent next year. Did you know that WC went 5-6 in 2012? Many would say the talent was dry that year as well, but they’ve responded with 7 sectional titles and 2 state titles since that year. Both BD and WC will soon reign again in 6A and you’ll be tucking your tail between your legs as you do with most of your hot take posts. Why the need to have such expectations on teenage kids? The urban school kids continue to amaze me while people such as DT only judge based off of records and championships.

Ben Davis was still in the Semi State game 2 years in a row and Warren made it to the regionals this year by beating both North Central and LN. Say what you want, but these 2 are still in the tops of the MIC and the state. I actually feel BD and WC will have very solid teams next year.

THAT is the quintessential diamond hard fact that is impossible to dance around in these discussions. I am not attempting make any sort of point as to whether there is some exceptionalism as to CYO rather than simply stating that these are “our” (collectively) home grown players.

I have an Aunt who is from Freeport, IL and they are the Freeport Pretzels

There is what seems to be a detectable, almost obvious, ebb and flow to your numbers above. In 2014, only 17% of the titles went to P/Ps which meant that certain winning Publics were going to get Success Factored up. In 2015 and 2016, the P/Ps that had been “bumped” returned down and won again. In 2017 and 2018, the P/Ps were bumped “up” again and failed to win in the next class. During that same time for 2 straight years, P/Ps only won 17% of the titles again for 2 straight years. The implication of that is that most of the schools being bumped will be Publics and the P/Ps that failed will return to class of origin.....moreso than any year prior. What is the result of that Public domination in 2017 and 2018? P/Ps (whether existing already in class or returning) won due to the fact that the prior successful Publics had been bumped up due to their success the previous 2 years. The 67% winning rates of P/Ps in 2020 are a direct result of the inordinate success of Publics who were bumped up due to their successes in 2017 and 2018. The Success Factor has “worked” but the “yo-yo” effect hasn’t yet been fully solved.....although the switch to 2 points to stay “up” is a step in the right direction. I would add that it’s always going to take 2-6 years for thing to sort themselves out do to the way the 2 cycles work and how they fall. Again, going to a rolling cycle should allow thing to shake out much more quickly as to results.

Tons of fun. It's been really cool to see him come out of his shell since the beginning of the year. He didn't play defense, so he always jumped in to run scout team O and it really helped our first team D. Great team player.

No I’d prefer seeded statewide playoffs like Illinois plus Indiana being a midsized state makes no sense. I think the only state that has northern and southern is California and that’s like 5 states in 1.

Micah’s a very quiet, modest kid. He’s a great teammate.

If you are getting that from my comment you have connected dots that simply aren’t there.

By making it as high as possible. More kids obviously equals more money. No school is going to turn money down to compete at a lower level in athletics. Ritter, Guerin, and Scecina have all been 1A in the not too distant past. Chatard was 2A for a long time, and Cathedral and Roncalli dominated 3A. They have all grown and won’t control enrollment until their buildings won’t hold another kid.

That you aren't following it does not make the logic flawed. The "extra" students push publics to higher divisions.

Here, here! I will gladly toast the IHSAA leadership for the guts to see the fall sports season through. I hope they have the same resolve for winter sports as well. My son has classmates who have spent weekends out of state for travel soccer and volleyball during the month of November. I would 100x rather support the education based model of IHSAA over club sports.

Yep. Where’s @TheStatGuy? He told us all summer how ridiculous the notion of playing high school football was and then doubled down telling us there’s no way the season finishes once it had started. Rent is due.

We can still have 1st and 25, but the foul must occur after the chains have been set and the ball made ready for play on 1st down. Here’s an example: 1st and 10 for Team A at midfield. Team A comes to the line for the play. The play clock is running. As the left OT gets down into his stance he says to the B player across from him, in a loud voice, “Yo mama's so fat, when she fell I didn't laugh, but the sidewalk cracked up.” The umpire hears this and throws a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct on the A player. After enforcement, it’s 1st and 25 for team A at their own 35.

Every student-athlete on Roncalli’s offensive line attended a South deanery grade school. This has been the case for at least the last five years if memory serves... Maybe those Catholic grade school lunch ladies are slipping something in the Fish Sandwich lunches during Lent? It’s possible.

3A school with 32 seniors. That is AWESOME. Speaks volumes of the kids and the program. Congrats to Chatard on their state championship. Way to keep fighting Danville. Congrats to both teams on fantastic seasons.

what about these numbers?